Anxious-Avoidant Trap: How Attachment Styles Fuel Repetitive Arguments

Ever feel like you’re caught in a Groundhog Day of the same silly arguments, over the same little topics? Areas such as the dishwasher, or how often you’re going to see extended family, or how to spend money, or timeliness, or which friends you’re hanging out with? What if these arguments were simply at the surface of an underlying dynamic that repeats again and again unless you address the deeper level of your attachment wounds.  Research shows that this is exactly what’s going on. And this is why recent research on attachment styles in romantic relationships is so vitally important, but only if you want a happier, safer, and more connected relationship. Tune in to two of the best marriage therapists in the business to learn how to finally solve your repetitive arguments once and for all so you get the relationship you so richly deserve!

Here is the link to the podcast on Apple Podcasts: The Anxious-Avoidant Trap: How Attachment Styles Impact Conflict.

To watch the video, just click below.

And here is a transcript of John & Joree’s discussion on attachment styles and this particularly, vexing dynamic.

The Anxious-Avoidant Trap: How Attachment Styles Impact Conflict – Top Marriage Therapists Solve It – Transcript

Dr. John Schinnerer & Joree Rose, LMFT, Danville, CA

Dr. John Schinnerer: Hey everybody, this is Dr. John back with the latest episode of the Evolved Caveman podcast and we are doing a joint podcast today with Journey Forward with Joree Rose.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Hey everyone, we are so happy to be back talking about something that we see so many couples struggle with, which is the anxious avoidant trap.

And fortunately, and unfortunately, we’ve got some good experience about this in our own relationship. So we have a deep understanding of what this looks like from the inside out in a relationship. But the good news is not only are we going to share some Important information about what kind of leads to this, uh, dance in a relationship, but give you some really solid advice and tools on how to get out of it because John and I, and our relationship used to get stuck in this dance.

And I am so grateful to say with our own awareness and insight into what was going on, we have [00:01:00] learned how to no longer dance the dance of the anxious and avoidance.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And I just want to say that it’s one of the most common dynamics that we see in relationship and one of the most difficult because the two attachment styles avoidant and anxious are antithetical to one another.

In other words, they’re almost like polar opposites. And so it creates a very difficult and painful dynamic in these relationships.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Top Couples Counselor: So what’s important to understand that the root of this is attachment styles. So I’m going to give a brief overview. I’m certain many people have heard about the different attachment styles and there’s three main different styles.

The first one is secure attachment. And this is generally how a baby under age two is developing a bond with a primary caregiver. Generally, it’s the mother. So the goal and the ideal situation is a secure attachment. So that means baby’s job is to go explore the world and go play. They are able to do [00:02:00] so better when they come back and their mom is still there.

That gives them a sense of security and safety, but it also wires their brain for what love looks like and how to trust others. So when I go off and explore, I trust. My person, which later becomes our primary partners, is going to be there for us. I feel safe. I feel secure. That’s the, that’s the ideal. The anxious style comes from when baby goes off to explore and play the, and explore the world and play.

When they come back, sometimes mom is there, sometimes they’re not. Hence, anxiety. They don’t know what they’re going to get. And that also wires their brain for not trusting others can be there for them. The avoidance style is, again, baby goes off to wander and play. When they come back, primary care giver is generally not available, even if they’re present, not available for them.

That [00:03:00] wires their brain for really not trusting others, but really wiring them to become self reliant. The message they learn is, I can’t rely on others to be there for me, so I better learn how to take care of myself and figure this out. So you can see, and then there’s also an anxious avoidant, um, mix, but keeping it simple as the three main attachment styles.

The good news is, is our attachment styles aren’t fixed. So even if you had an anxious attachment with your mother as a child, you can have a really healthy partnership. So it’s really relationship dependent. And we all have that core narrative, even if it changes at the current relationship, we do have that core experience from early childhood, which does a good job of wiring our brain.

Good news is our brains can change, but we’ve got to let our belief systems catch up with what we know science can do for our brain. So that being said. When couples get into difficult [00:04:00] dynamics with one another, it can activate their attachment styles. John, do you want to share a little bit more of what that might look like in practice or in actuality?

Sure.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So the, the anxious avoidant trap or conflict is, as I said, the most common one. And at its, at their base, an anxious attachment style is generally tending towards the relationship. They want connection. When they don’t get connection, they get afraid, they get panicked, they get anxious. The avoidant attachment.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Can I kind of add one thing in there?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah,

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: that anxious attachment. Um, at the very root. I forgot to say this in my little intro that I was talking about at the very root. What we feel when we are back with that primary caregiver is a sense of regulation. So we’re always seeking a way to be regulated.

And just to add on to what you said, the anxious person is going to find regulation with their partner. Whereas, and I’ll lead you back into what you were going to say.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: The avoidant is [00:05:00] generally tending away, they’re turning away from the relationship, they’re pulling away from, and the reason for that is generally they’re trying to find a way to regulate their nervous system, a way to calm themselves down, which they do solo.

And the anxious person does it in relationship, in tandem. And so you can see where this creates a lot of problems. So when Joy and I first started going out, everything was hunky dory, like it was fantastic. And then, you know, we start having a few arguments here and there. And what would happen, we found, is that usually I would disappoint Jory in some way, which I hate to do, and we would get into a disagreement about it.

And I can hang with it for about 15 minutes or so. And then I found myself getting emotionally flooded. So, my parasympathetic nervous system turns off, my sympathetic nervous system turns on. That’s the fight flight freeze response, the stress response. And then I’m kind of useless for thinking clearly.[00:06:00]

Because then my actions are limited to fight flight freeze, but so are my thoughts. And so my response to that internally was, I’m just not going to say anything because I don’t want to say anything in anger Jory. The problem with that is, from Jory’s perspective,

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: it felt like abandonment.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And it’s stonewalling

Joree Rose, LMFT, Top Marriage Therapist: and it was deeply disconnecting and the more I felt disconnected, the more I sought connection and I would step towards, which would in turn make John feel fearful of not being able to meet my need of connection.

So he would withdraw further. So you can see where this dynamic is like this. This case that never gets resolved and the anxious person feels unseen and unvalidated in their needs to connect and the avoidant person feels unseen and invalidated for their need for space. It’s really a challenging dynamic [00:07:00] and I don’t think it could always stem from you disappointing me in those dynamics.

And as it might’ve been something going on with your inner self, that might’ve been an inner trigger that just caused you to need space. But when we don’t have the language to name what’s going on, it can feel really dysregulating for the couple overall. And this, this dynamic, this

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: dynamic even would come into play.

Like we got to the point where I could say, Hey, sweetheart, I need a break. I’m getting flooded. And even that wasn’t enough to calm you. Because you thought I was leaving the relationship.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Right.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so I tried to work in, you know, and I’ll be back, but we found that still wasn’t enough also.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Well, and I think part of that was there were prior times in which you had tried to leave the relationship, so my safety and trusting those words wasn’t really solid.

And I know now looking back that it was you [00:08:00] attempting to seek safety from fear of being hurt or hurting me that it was really an insecurity around trusting and relationship, period. And it was about not wanting to be in relationship with me. And we do know from the research with john and Julie Gottman that.

Naming the specific amount of time you’re going to need space for the avoidant person to reassure the anxious person is really key because you would say, I would be back. How long that meant. That was a challenge. And the research says that a minimum of 20 minutes, but a maximum of 24 hours. But the key is to tell the other person, Hey, I need 20 minutes.

And if you still need another 20, come back and then be able to name. I’m not quite regulated yet. And so let me,

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: let me throw something out there though, in the sense that what if. A couple has a conversation like this about it. They discover, oh yeah, that anxious avoidant [00:09:00] trap, that’s what we’re in. And what if they agree when they’re calm, hey look, anyone can take a timeout, with the caveat that when we take a timeout, it’s a minimum of 20 minutes and a maximum of 24 hours.

So that maybe, cause I know at times when I was flooded, it was hard to even get to that point of, I’ll be back in, fill in the blank, X hours, four hours, because I don’t really know. Right.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Well, yeah. And, and sometimes you were very fixed mindset around, this may never work based on other narratives of worthiness and relationship.

I’m not even sure you always knew when you would be back.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Right.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And you know, this, you know, for, for the work that John and I are building in our love isn’t enough masterclass series and our love isn’t enough coaching. I mean, this really speaks to some deeper. Curiosities around what is the responsibility of the relationship work versus what is the self work, right?

Because what we’re guiding our clients and together with love isn’t enough is that [00:10:00] constant interplay of the self work as well as the relational and this anxious avoidant trap is a perfect microcosm of the self and others. The other being the relational work ongoing interplay, because while you were taking the space to regulate your nervous system from feeling flooded and overwhelmed by emotion, so you could calm yourself down.

Cause you would even say, I don’t want to say something, anything that would hurt you.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And the

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: reason if you guys are new to the podcast or new to any of our teachings, I always like to give this education about our brain is. In the center part of our brain, we have our emotional brain, and in the front above our eyes is our prefrontal cortex, which is our most evolved part of the brain.

That’s where we have logic, reason, rationality, decision making, clear thinking, language, communication. So when the emotional brain fires off, it literally cuts off access. To that executive functioning. So if this is why this is a [00:11:00] really important key and understanding when you’re arguing with your partner, the self awareness to know when you are flooded, that conversation is not going to be effective because you’re operating from your emotional brain and you’re cut off from logic, reason, rationality, and communication.

So a timeout really is an effective tool for arguing so that we can get our executive functioning back online. It’s like the wifi has gone out.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And when you’re in that state, if I may, you do, you have a lot of cognitive errors. So, as I said, your thinking is fight, flight, freeze along with your behaviors, but that leads to things like all or nothing thinking black or white thinking over generalizations, emotional reasoning and so forth.

So you’re going to say things that may not even make sense. You know, like, oh, you never do this. Or I always do this. Never and always statements are never true.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Are they all? I’ll

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: think about that for a while, I don’t know.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: That’s kind of a meta, [00:12:00] a meta thing there. But the key that we’re, you know, I think was really helpful, and I’ll get back to what I started to say a moment ago, but the self work is, in this, is at the very root of all disagreement.

I mean, we did a podcast episode recently on arguing effectively, right? And. The best way we can argue effectively is to get that emotional brain to calm down, to get all that executive functioning back online so we can access those resources. And the best way to do that is to give ourselves the space to breathe and to regulate.

Now for me, in those moments, When you would take your space and you would say, I need to go calm down. So in my perfect mind, I should have been able to respect the fact of, Oh, he’s needing to go regulate right now so that he’s available to communicate and to connect with me. But my anxious mind couldn’t tolerate the space.

And [00:13:00] it felt more triggering. And that’s because I had an underdeveloped sense of self regulation. So what I had to learn in those dynamics was, okay, when John needs space, Because he is a little bit stuck in that avoidance style and doesn’t yet trust the safety of relationship. I need to learn to trust myself to regulate my own nervous system.

I was over reliant, hence the anxiety. I was over reliant on you to regulate that for me. So it was deep work for me in those moments to be like, ah, shit, I got a selfie regulate here and that feels really uncomfortable. I don’t like being alone right now. I want my partner to comfort me and reassure me he’s not available for that.

What can I do? And at the very root is we sit and we breathe, that’s going to be the core of what’s going to regulate that nervous system, calm down that [00:14:00] emotional brain and find what self care looks like for me in those moments. And I can think of two moments in particular. One in which we were in Italy when we struggled with this dynamic, unfortunately, a lot and one of the most beautiful places in the world and Lake Como, and what was powerful about that was, I didn’t over personalize your need for space, and I’m like, Oh, I can go for a walk right now.

And I ended up going for a walk and I felt empowered by choosing me to go on a walk versus you saying, I’m like, I think I was the first one in that moment to say, I’m going to go for a walk. So it felt like I had agency in the space and I ended up going on this beautiful walk. And I sat by the lake and I ordered myself a glass of champagne.

And I just like, this is great self care right now.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: You know, you bring up an interesting point in the sense of, I wonder if people that are in the [00:15:00] anxious avoidant trap, if, if it’s possible for the anxious person to realize their partner’s getting shut down and for them to request a timeout and for them to choose to go elsewhere with the knowledge that they’ll be back soon to resolve things.

Because I think there’s something in the choice and the autonomy for the anxious person of being like, okay, this is my choice, not he’s leaving me.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah. I’m going to get really, really vulnerable with you guys right now as we’re recording this. So this morning I was over John’s and we had a bit of a disconnect and I was going to plan on staying at his place the rest of the day.

And guess what I did? I said, Hey, I think I’m going to go home for a few hours. I’ll be back later tonight. So I actually enacted that choice and it wasn’t a huge anxious, avoidant trap dance issue. It was, I think John would be better having some space alone right now. I’m going to go home and I’ll be back later.

So I [00:16:00] actually did that today.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And you did it well.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And I know it was helpful and I didn’t over personalize it. I know he needs some space right now. He’s exhausted. He’s a little bit emotionally overwhelmed. And the best thing I can do for him to be able to meet my needs is to give him that space.

Now I’m able to do that much better now because we have quite secure attachment. We’ve worked on this. So this isn’t like an easy thing to enact when you are still in the middle of that dance, but I had to really learn as the anxious attachment style. A, even if he doesn’t come back, I’m going to be okay.

Like fundamentally. And we had a breakup and that fucking sucked. And I had to start to learn. I can be okay even without him. I didn’t like it. I don’t want that. And I had to find that regulation within myself, but taking that walk in Lake Como and sitting by the Lake and getting a glass of champagne felt like a great self care for me in the moment.

And. I remember another time we [00:17:00] were stuck in this dance and we were going to have dinner and you needed space and it was like now 10 o’clock at night and I hadn’t eaten dinner and I called my friend and I was upset and I was crying to her and she’s like, well, what do you feel you need right now? And like through my tears, I’m like, I want an In N Out burger.

She’s like, great, go to In N Out. So I grabbed the dog, got in the car. It was like 11 o’clock. But again, that was kind of new to me. It seems so obvious and it almost feels slightly embarrassing now to feel how unevolved emotionally that was. And that was my work.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah, but I would say champagne and in and out are pretty good routes to self care and calming down.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah, I think so. And not that we need to turn to food and alcohol, but Hey, you know, you know, it works for you. And so that was a deep level of self work for me to recognize, okay, he still loves me. He’s overwhelmed. I [00:18:00] have a need. He has a need. He cannot meet my need right now. The more I push it, the further he’s going to need more space.

It actually behooves me to give him the space quicker without putting my claws on him and dragging him back. Cause that’s never going to work you guys, even though it feels desperate. And yet it was very humbling to say, Oh, this actually isn’t about me because where he’s coming from is rooted in his childhood in which he had an avoidant attachment style in which he learned self reliance was the safest thing.

Partnership was the safest thing.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah,

Joree Rose, LMFT, Top Marriage Therapist: when I can have compassion rather than judge it or over personalize it, then we can begin to have the ability to build secure attachment.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I would say that in general, if I had to guess, I would say that in this dynamic, usually the avoidant is going to be male.[00:19:00]

The anxious is going to be female. And part of it is because we’re socialized as men to believe we need to stand on our own and to be independent. And we’re often, uh, mothers kind of let us go in terms of attention and support earlier. Right. Um, I know that, you know, that was true for me that I was pretty on my own emotionally and relationally growing up.

Um, but let me, let me go on to what I had to, my work, my individual work, because I think it’s fascinating to think of, you know, there’s this relational element to this, which we took to the limit in terms of improving communication, kind of getting our communication down and then there’s this individual element

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: that

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think we needed to go deeper than the typical couple’s tools.

would take us. And that was kind of eye opening for us. So you needed to learn better self soothing techniques. I interestingly needed to, I found that when I was getting [00:20:00] flooded and we were in disagreement, there was times and it wouldn’t last long, but long enough to do damage where I would hear thoughts such as she’d be better off without me.

Or I’m no good at this relationship thing. And it took a while of kind of thinking about that. It took a while to even be aware of it, because if you had asked me 10 years ago, if I felt any shame, I would have said, no, don’t be ridiculous. But all of a sudden I was like, holy shit, that’s shame. Those thoughts tell me that I was feeling shame because what is shame, but the belief that I am unworthy of love, connection, and belonging.

So those thoughts are kind of the, the epitome. of shame. And so once I realized that, I was like, Oh, okay. So at some deep level, this is about self worth, worthiness in relationship, worthiness to connect. And so what I did then was kind of get into internal family systems and then start having some [00:21:00] conversations with little John, with the four year old John that was left alone at times, um, with, you know, with a babysitter, but, you know, for, for long periods of time.

Um, And I had to tell him that he was safe, he was okay, he was loved, he was valued, he’s worthy. And then, you know, beyond that, to go take a nap when we’re in these disagreements so that, you know, wise adult John can respond more appropriately. But that took a few conversations in an attempt to deal with that shame, so that that shame didn’t come up as intensely or as frequently in those situations.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Top Couples Counselor: And another component of this. That was really eye opening to was recognizing what is the difference between me having an anxious response [00:22:00] in that dance versus me having a trauma response. And this was a huge awareness. Can you share what shifted for you when we had this awareness because sometimes my anxiety felt disproportionate.

And I think that frustrated you and it made you feel. Well, you can share what it made you feel, but it felt disproportionate to the situation. And yet all I know is I was getting hyper dysregulated in a way that even feel like I was within my body at times. And it felt really embarrassing because I’m a pretty emotionally stable person normally.

And this just didn’t feel like me.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Mm hmm.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Significant.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, I think that’s one of the interesting things about romantic relationships is they bring up this stuff that nobody else sees. And I think it’s, you know, there are pieces of ourselves which we are embarrassed by or ashamed by or feel guilty [00:23:00] about that only our romantic partner sees in these worst moments.

And they may only happen two, three, 5 percent of the time. They can damage relationships, destroy them potentially. So, what we realized was that This wasn’t just an anxious attachment style that you were having. This was a trauma response to some things that happened in your early childhood. And I really liked that line.

I think it’s by Terry real that. The idea is if it’s hysterical, it’s historical. And I think to some extent we were both having hysterical reactions. Like in other words, hysterical meaning that the emotional response was out of proportion with the situation. And you know, the situations where you’re like, what the, like, what was that?

Like, where did that come from? Why did I feel so strongly about that? And then of course, you know, the first thing we typically want to do is blame our partner for our intense emotional reaction. When I think a much better response is to look at, wow, that [00:24:00] was way out of proportion. I wonder what I can connect that with in my past, and it could be a past relationship, could be childhood, um, but it generally indicates that there’s something more going on beneath the surface.

So anyway, once we figured out that this was a traumatic response, not merely an anxious attachment style, which says to me that it’s a higher emotional intensity on the scale, but it helped me have great compassion for where you were coming from. And it helped me to get out of my own anger and hurt in those disagreements.

I don’t know about a hundred percent of the time, but much more frequently

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: because I could

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: access this idea of, Oh shit, this is a trauma response from Jory. I need to help her regulate.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Right. And not all of my anxious responses were trauma responses. I, I don’t, I don’t want to give permission to just say it was always trauma and you should have been there no matter what, and, you know, put my needs first.

And I think there were certain [00:25:00] times that definitely was the case. And I used the struggle because it felt like the avoidant need for space superseded my anxious need for connection.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, and I was going to say that I think it brings up this interesting. Conundrum or problem where when we’re in disagreement and romantic relationships, we often want our emotional needs to be addressed first because they’re so close to home and they hurt so much.

But if you both want your emotional needs to be addressed first, who actually gets their needs met first.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Right. And then it goes back to another Terry real line of, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be connected? And by right, I mean, who’s going to win this battle. Right. And. Again, when you’re in this state, your emotional brain has taken over, your tools are not accessible.

So we’re not operating from a clear mind from the get go.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, and I think that’s [00:26:00] one of the things that’s interesting about what you just said is I think that that whole idea of would you rather be right or would you rather be married or connected is, you know, I’ve only come to find out about that in the past, I don’t know, six years or so.

And I think that was a real game changer for me. And it’s taken some time to kind of catch up. And I think I’m still. Kind of mastering that idea. But the idea there is we’re not seeking to win the argument. What we’re seeking to do is see, hear, and validate where our partner’s coming from to hear the emotions underneath their words and listen, non defensively listen with curiosity and

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: try and find out, sorry, or behaviors or actions, right.

To see what’s underneath even the behavior.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And. And that, that’s a really big mind shift, mindset shift, um, [00:27:00] where I, I think if we could all do that, we would be so much better off because I think so much of us, so many of us are, we get stuck in anger and then we’re just going to die on that hill to try and prove that we’re right.

And we’re just arguing to get our partner to hear how right we are and admit how wrong they are, which is never going to happen.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Best Couples Counselor: Right.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Couples Counselor: Or rarely.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Right. So if you’re listening to this and you’re like, Oh my God, you just described my relationship dynamics, which in fact, over this weekend, we were out at a comedy show, which was all about dating and relationships.

And we were talking to this woman in front of us and she’s like, Oh, I’ve got two therapists here. I’m going to get some free therapy advice. And she, you know, kind of told us a little bit more about her most recent breakup. And as we shared our story, she was like, you just described. Exactly what my boyfriend and I went through and it really gave us the impetus to record this episode [00:28:00] specifically on anxious avoidance styles because as John said in the beginning, it is one of the most common, common styles amongst couples to get stuck in.

And. There is a way out of it and as you know, it’s got to start with awareness that we’re even in it,

Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Couples Counselor: but

Joree Rose, LMFT, Best Couples Counselor: it’s got to be awareness with compassion versus awareness with judgment. If we have an awareness with judgment, it’s going to continue to blame externalized shame and make us feel that this is fixed and we have no hope of getting out of it.

Awareness with compassion is the awareness of, wow, this is like really deeply rooted shit here.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so let me, let me share one of the ways that we got out of it. I believe, um, that was all you just to give credit where credit’s due. So a lot of times, a lot of times when we would get into disagreement, we would at some point come to a resolution.

And [00:29:00] then put it behind us, or so I thought. And Jory became famous for kind of bringing up past disagreements three, four, five, seven days later. And we’d be on a walk or something and she’d say, Hey, you know, I’m not quite settled on this. Would you mind if I brought it up again? And at first I’m like, Oh shit, like we’ve got to talk about this again.

Like we just, we just nailed this one. We just put it to rest. I don’t really want to have another uncomfortable conversation about this. And over time, I began to realize that this was a really effective way of changing our patterns. Changing our patterns in a way that mattered. Because every conversation that we had, subsequent to the initial disagreement, we were more objective, more curious, less judgmental, and we had greater distance from it, so we could look at ourselves and our own dynamics and our own feelings.

In a more honest way, but also we were in a spot where we could offer gently [00:30:00] suggestions to each other, which I think we’re far more likely to be heard. And, and over time this, I think of it now as an upward spiral of kind of revisiting these disagreements. And every time you go to the same point on the spiral, you’re revisiting the same disagreement.

But if you do that enough, you really come to some resolution in some of these areas where there was no resolution before.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Best Couples Counselor: Right. And I think the other thing that it gave us the ability to do now, I know this is the tricky part with this. And I know if you’re listening, you’re like, yeah, but if I bring it up again, we’re going to get dysregulated.

We’re going to go right back to where we were. So I would lead with the intention of, Hey, love, I don’t want to get us re triggered. I would like to be able to talk about what was underneath our argument. So when we can lead with the intention, it’s a little bit easier to see where we might get off. Off track with it so we can bring it back to the intention, but it’s a fear.

I hear especially for a moment of, I don’t want to rock the boat. Why would I bring [00:31:00] it back up? Well, we’re not rocking the boat. We’re simply trying to gain insight. And we’re trying to gain understanding because we all, like you said, my favorite thing, we all want to be seen, heard, and validated. And if that emotional brain has taken over, there’s a chance of it.

And so the best chance we have of being seen, heard, and validated is talking about it when we’re actually not triggered.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Couples Counselor: And how else do you, how else do you look at what’s underneath your anger? Because there’s a saying, which I don’t a hundred percent agree with, but the saying is that anger is always a secondary emotion.

I do think anger can be a primary emotion too. Like you just get angry about someone violating a boundary or treating you in a bad way or social injustices. And At the same time, I think anger is very frequently a secondary emotion, which means that it follows really quickly on the heel of another emotion, a primary emotion, or maybe several primary emotions.

So especially in men, I’ve seen anger follow, and we’re talking like a third of a second follow, but [00:32:00] anger follow on the heels of embarrassment, guilt, shame, anxiety. And depression or sadness because we know depression in men shows up most often as irritability and impatience. So men, if you’re a male and listening to this, have the wisdom, have the curiosity to ask yourself, perhaps after the fact, what was, what was underneath that anger?

Like what was I really feeling? Because think about times in your past when you’ve gotten embarrassed and it’s quickly shot to anger.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Best Couples Counselor: So coming back to and revisiting those conversations. You know, you gave credit to where credit was due saying that I, I kept doing this, but I really want to honor that. I’m going to give you the credit of being open to it and recognizing and getting out of the narrative that you would have that this wouldn’t help.

So thank you for doing that. I think it was both of our efforts in stepping towards the [00:33:00] relationship. And, you know, that’s always. The key is how can we be relational right now and that’s what I struggled with because the avoidance space didn’t feel relational until I had to understand, you know, this is the way to get back to being relational is to get to that point of regulation to be able to come back together.

But if a secure attachment is based on safety and trust. And the anxious or avoidant attachment is based on not feeling secure and not trusting your partner is going to be there. It’s also going to build in all other areas in which we can build safety. And so not just, you know, the times in which we would revisit disagreements, but, and especially after our breakup, I think we’ve done an exceptional job over the course of the year to build safety in an authentic way.

In which we can really trust one another having each other’s backs and that trust is built through small daily [00:34:00] action, right? The Gottman’s talk about as one of the tools to become a master versus disaster in relationship is small things often. So what are the small things you can do to make your partner feel safe and secure?

Part of that’s going to be non defensive listening. Part of that’s going to be validating their experience, even if you disagree or don’t like it, right? The non reactivity, the doing what you say you’re going to do, if you’re going to be back in 20 minutes, be back in 20 minutes. If you’re going to text when you get somewhere, text, like all these little things, which many people feel like, oh, that sounds controlling, or that feels like I’m on a short leash, or do I have to be that transparent?

Well, if you want to secure attachment. Yeah, these are relational things.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Couples Counselor: Well, and to flip that, I mean, what do you ask of your teenager? You know, do you ask them to text you when you get to, when they get to a party, for example? Do they [00:35:00] ask, do you ask them to get, do you ask them to text you when they get to a destination after driving an hour or two?

To me, this is just consideration for people that you love. You don’t want to have to worry about them. You want to know that they’re safe.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And the way that you and I have done that with our teenage daughters is we flip the script by we text them when we get somewhere, we let them know we are safe and say, look, this isn’t about control of a top down.

This is about respect for when you care for someone, you want to have that safety and trust. And, you know, repairing safety interests after a transgression or a breach in safety interest can be hard at the root of that is what is my mindset towards change? So, you know, if you have, John and I get asked this question all the time is, you know, what’s the core thing to know that this is a relationship worth getting into or fighting for is having that growth mindset towards learning the relational skills and being willing to grow and change.

And part of that willingness, [00:36:00] which I think. Thank you for your growth, John, because this is something you’ve done very well at is the willingness to stay uncomfortable for the purpose of ultimate connection. And I was just going to say, you know, it was a huge deal at the time when he realized he had a 15 minute window before getting flooded.

Like that was great self awareness. And that he had a, that John, you had that awareness a couple of years ago, and yet that was still hard because sometimes you couldn’t resolve everything in 15 minutes or my emotions wouldn’t feel settled within 15 minutes. So it was great awareness. And didn’t always lead to ease of resolution and part of what built my safety and trust in our relationship was when we did a 12 hour, six hour per day, two day therapy intensive.

Like that was you standing in the fighting for the relationship saying, Hey, I’m willing to sit for six [00:37:00] hours of therapy over the next two days. That was a willingness to be uncomfortable for the sake of relational connection. And I so value that.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Thank you. And I like the idea of, you know, anytime you’re in a relationship like this, there’s three entities.

There’s you, me and the relationship. And I like thinking of it like that because I think it helps me to fight for the relationship even when we are in disconnection. Because there’s times in those moments when I don’t like you that much, when I am angry at you and I still know the relationship is exceptional.

And, and I think the idea of giving to the relationship, of meeting the needs of the relationship before oneself. I like the idea that paradoxically helps me to get my own needs met more frequently.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Well, absolutely. And that was something I struggled with. As part of my narrative [00:38:00] of my own past challenges and traumas, it was finding individuation.

And, you know, independence and individual individuation in a committed partnership. And when we met Terry real last year at a conference, but also when I had him on the podcast, if you guys haven’t heard that episode, it’s really great. It came out a few months ago and I asked him, you know, what is the right balance of individuality and relational connection in a partnership?

And having his relational awareness, you know, and therapy, he said, well, if you are focusing on the relationship, a strong relationship will feed the individual. So everyone’s needs will get met when you always turn towards the relationship. And the more you turn towards the relationship, that’s what builds a secure attachment to give your partner more.

I don’t like the word, but I’ll say it more freedoms for their [00:39:00] individuality because there’s such a safe and secure base. Thanks.

Dr. John: From which to explore the world.

Joree: Exactly. So, you know, these are how we developed in a safe and secure attachment with our primary partner, even despite what we had growing up or in a previous relationship.

And I’ve seen with you, John, your worldview change, I would say over the past year regarding someone can be trusted, someone will be there for me. And that’s allowed, from my perspective, for you to feel secure with me.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Which

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: also then feeds your worthiness that that was the fear and the underneath that was coming up when we don’t have someone always there for us.

Right. And I would say, go ahead.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Couples Counselor: Well, and I think in my past, I had the experience and the history of getting burned, if not badly burned by several females. And so that was something I had to work on individually to [00:40:00] overcome and in relationship.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Best Couples Counselor: Right. And I’ve seen you shift that beautifully. So thank you for the individual work that you’ve done to get there.

It’s quite courageous to be able to look at ourselves and get out of those narratives. And I don’t think I’ve had a more accelerated growth path for myself than I have in the past 12 months. It’s astonishing to see that with desire and capacity towards growth and connection, we can move mountains when it comes to what we can focus on, on our relationship.

And You know, that, that, that’s some of the two key things that we talk about is having the desire and the capacity for growth and change. And when you, when you are committed to the relationship you’re, you’re in and things aren’t working, we’ve got to figure out, you know, what do we need to get back to that point of, of safety, security, and connection, anything else?

Dr. John Schinnerer,Best  Couples Counselor: Yeah, [00:41:00] no, I’m just aware of time and, uh, I’ve got to wrap up in a couple minutes.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Best Couples Counselor: So, you know, we want to share this as, as we do wrap up to normalize. A how hard relationships are. They’re fucking hard. Love isn’t enough. We are building out this new arm of our joint business together. We will soon be launching our new website.

Love isn’t enough dot net. We, um, are soon going to be launching a new Instagram account in which we are really focusing on this because. People love each other and don’t know how to be in relationship with each other. And it’s causing a lot of pain for a lot of people. And the problem is they think, Oh, I’ll just end this relationship and go find someone else in which it’s easier.

But your attachment styles, your traumas, your belief systems, your narratives, your level of self awareness and self work is going to [00:42:00] follow you wherever you go.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Couples Counselor: Wherever you go, there you are. And I think, you know, If you have a partner who is growth minded, you have the opportunity to re parent yourself, to reprogram some of those old tapes, and then to use that romantic relationship truly to go out and explore the world from.

And so it offers this beautiful chance to heal your past and create a thriving, happy, fulfilling relationship.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Best Couples Counselor: Yeah. So if this is speaking to you, stay tuned from, for more from us. Um, we do have our monthly masterclass series that covers a lot of this stuff. That link will be in the show notes. If you’d like to join our upcoming one is happening on, I believe it’s March 20th.

And this is going to be all about awareness. So a lot of what we talked about here today around the [00:43:00] self awareness that we need to be able to show up in relationship may not always be evident to you of what we need to be aware of and how to practice that. And you know, at the end of the day, change is possible.

Growth is possible, may not be easy and you may have to have some breakdowns to lead to breakthroughs. And they don’t always have to be breakups, but you know what we needed was a complete shattering of our frameworks both personally and relationally to say. We love each other. Let’s get rid of what wasn’t working and understand how to build something to really work and to connect and to feel safe and secure.

And so I can easily say, Hey, I’m going to take a couple hours at home. I’ll see you on later and not feel threatened by space. And for me to do that easily change and growth as possible.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Couples Counselor: Well done.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Best Couples Counselor: Yeah. And I, I attest to all of that, to the work that we’ve done being so fiercely protective and committed [00:44:00] to this relationship.

So, um, if this episode has spoken to you, we’d love a rating, a review, a share. And if you want to do more work with us, we are available for couples coaching as well. So be sure to send us a message and, um, you know, we’re in the business of helping people cultivate the relationship that they always dreamed of.

You know, when you fell in love and you had that idea of what it was going to look like, and somewhere along the way, life got in the way. We want to help you get back to that spot because we did it and it’s never been better. And we know it’s possible. It’s going to take work, but the work is a journey.

It doesn’t have to mean it’s hard. It’s going to be hard, but it doesn’t have to mean you can’t do it. So thanks you guys for tuning in.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Couples Counselor: All right. Thanks guys.