Deep Grief: John Loses His Son

This is the most listened to podcast episode Dr. John has done out of more than 270 episodes.

Joree Rose and her fiancé, Dr. John, co-hosts of their respective podcasts, share an unexpected and deeply personal episode. Having recently returned from a meaningful trip to Africa, they are confronted by tragedy when John learns of his 23-year-old son’s unexpected death. The raw and emotional dialogue explores their individual and collective journeys through grief, highlighting the importance of making meaning from loss. They touch on various aspects of dealing with profound grief, such as finding gratitude, the impact on family dynamics, and the supportive power of community and ritual. They emphasize authentic emotional expression, the complexities of male grief, and finding solace in the love and support from others. The episode is a testament to vulnerability and the practice of self-compassion, aimed at helping others navigate their own experiences with loss. It is also a roadmap for how to walk through the tunnel of grief and emerge resiliently on the other side. Trigger warning: This one is raw, emotional, and contains talk about the death of a child, addiction and deep grief.

Some Of The Questions Confronted In This Heart-Wrenching Episode:

What emotions show up when grieving?

How does grief show up in the body?

What is complicated grief?

How do you find meaning in a tragic death?

What are some of the best things you can say to someone who is grieving?

What are some best practices to re-engage with life after a death?

To listen to this gut-churning episode on Apple Podcasts, click here.

To watch the video, just click below.

If you’d like to read through the transcript, it is shared below for your ongoing education.

Deep Grief: John Loses His Son Transcript

Joree Rose: Hey everybody, welcome back. This is another joint episode This is Joree Rose with the Journey Forward with Joree Rose podcast and i’m here with my fiancee 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Dr. John with the Evolved Caveman Podcast 

Joree Rose: And we’ve been wanting to do more shared and joint episodes together and we had some ideas of the things we wanted to talk about and Now here we are doing an episode that wasn’t at all And on our agenda, but nonetheless feels really important to share, both to get through the personal journey that we’re on, but also to be able to put that into service of the work that we do.

Joree Rose: And both showing up in authenticity, but also how to get through life when it’s hard when those curveballs hit that you just didn’t see coming. So John, do you want to [00:01:00] take it from here a little bit before we go into a joint conversation of today’s conversation? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: As we had an amazing epic to three countries in Africa, South Africa, Kenya, and Tanzania.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And there’s some episodes that we need to do there about what we experienced. And we got home on October 18th on the afternoon of October 19th. I got a knock on my door. I opened the door. It was two policemen. They said, are you John Schinnerer? I said, yes, I am. They said, do you mind if we come in? I said, sure.

Dr. John Schinnerer: They said, do you have a son named Brett? And I said, yes, I do. And the officer said, he’s dead.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I sat down [00:02:00] and they tried to console me a little bit, asked if they could call clergy. And I said, no. And they stayed around for a couple more minutes and then they left. The worst fear of any parent. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. My son was 23. He was living up in Chico. He died in his apartment bedroom. In his bed. We don’t know the why, it’s just speculation at this point.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I assume that it involved an accidental overdose. I’m not sure of what substance, but he did struggle with addiction. And I just stumbled around in shock for a few minutes and then thought I gotta call someone. And so I called you and I just said, “Brett’s dead.” And it was. I don’t even know, I was just in shock and denial. And then I had to make the calls to my ex wife and my children and let them know. And my daughter, Molly, was at her senior portrait photo shoot. So I waited ’til after she got done with that and then you came over and I told Molly when she got back and that… was rough.

Dr. John Schinnerer: She said, “there must be some mistake, there must be some mistake” and then started sobbing and we sobbed together.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so in an effort to help me with my grief and in dealing with this tragedy I felt the need to do this podcast in order to teach people about grief and what it’s like to be in it and how to, get out of it more quickly in a sense, [00:04:00] but how to make meaning, how to find meaning in it, how to, ask yourself, what are the lessons I’m supposed to learn in this?

Dr. John Schinnerer: Because when you make meaning of it. It doesn’t necessarily take the pain away, but it does reduce the pain and it is helpful because then at least in this case, his death won’t have been in vain. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And we do know David Kessler who did all the great work with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross on grieving and death and dying.

Most recently came out with a book, I think during COVID on the sixth step of grief, which he previously with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross’s work, I thought it was acceptance. But with her family’s permission to continue the research in that field, really discovered, no it’s making meaning. And that was what that whole book was about.  And so it’s spot on with what others have, come through in the research to say, [00:05:00] this is the actual next step and final step of grief. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And those five stages go by the acronym DABDA. So what is it – denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, and then you’re saying there’s a sixth one, meaning. Those have been challenged in the sense that those were what people, the stages people faced when they were looking at their own deaths and not so much when you’re dealing with the death of a loved one.

And I think that we in psychology took it and ran with it and over applied it. I think there’s some overlap. But I guess, so yeah, I think I just wanted to share some of the things that I’ve experienced because I think the typical male response and perhaps masculine response is, I don’t want to feel this, I want to run away, I want to numb out, I want to hide from it, I’m going to bury it, and I’m going to head back to work.

Joree Rose: Yeah. I was expecting you to do that, knowing that’s [00:06:00] natural, want to just self protect and not feel, and I have been incredibly humbled to have been by your side for as many moments of those that I could, and you let me in quite deeply, and obviously we’re in a relationship, but it could have very easily been one of those things where you secluded completely, and I really commend you and Molly both for letting me in for such intimate emotions that though I am your family, this still wasn’t my son and I didn’t always know how my presence was going to be needed or wanted.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And it was the best thing I think for you guys to allow such intimacy of presence. And I imagine at times that was also hard. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I’m incredibly grateful for your ability to just hold space to field whatever I was feeling without judgment. And that’s one of the things that I’ve [00:07:00] been practicing – feeling it all.  The whole thing feels like the ultimate mindfulness exercise that, I’m trying to allow whatever’s arising to arise without judgment.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I’ve had to remind myself to breathe hundreds of times throughout the day these past almost two and a half weeks now, because it feels like there’s an elephant sitting on my chest.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah, I remember there was one day you and Molly both described the heaviness of just movement and walking that it felt like you had concrete feet.

Joree Rose: That was a very visual and visceral description of just the heaviness to get up and get a glass of water or walk to the bathroom or move from your bed to the couch. And, the, some of the irony, in this timing was when we had just gotten back from Africa with our therapists, Charlie and Linda Bloom, who you and I went to after we got back together [00:08:00] and had, some really great connection in Africa and a lot of parallels of us and them both personally and professionally as couples and as partners and colleagues. But they also had lost a son close to the same age many years ago, and I know you were very grateful for making that point of connection with them the next day, although hesitant because it made it a reality and talking about it.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And you weren’t really in an easy stage to even receive condolences, I had to field some of them for you, just, and letting people know, but saying he’s not in a space to receive even the kindest of words, because it made it real. You really, you weren’t ready to accept that. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Let me touch on that for a second because, to me, that was a fascinating and slightly odd response that I had the first two or three days where word of his death started to get out slowly and people started to send their condolences very kindly and thoughtfully.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And my internal response was, [00:09:00] “I don’t want your pity. I don’t want these words.” Almost “take them back”, and it made me a little bit upset and I had to look at that and say, that’s an interesting reaction like “what’s going on there?” And I realized that I didn’t like the condolences because the condolences made the death more real, and I didn’t want it to be real.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I was still in denial. And that was pretty, that was gut wrenching. And then I also had to look at this idea that I had to work on radically accepting that this is my new reality – that my son is gone, because I think that one of the ways we get into complicated grief is by resisting that new reality and holding on to the thoughts “This shouldn’t have happened. Why did this happen? How could this have happened?” And we just get stuck in the past. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Can you briefly take a teaching moment and you just used [00:10:00] the phrase complicated grief. Can you just describe what complicated grief is as opposed to regular grief?

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, I haven’t really, I’m not an expert in this area, but my understanding is that complicated grief is grief that lasts longer than six months and we just get stuck in it.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And your mom said a line to me which stuck with me, which is “life is for the living.” And that line has stuck with me. And it’s absolutely true that we need to find a way to continue living despite this huge hole in my heart that was just created and, my belief is that hole gets smaller with time but never really goes away. You just to walk with it afterwards. But it gets easier to carry that burden. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: The other thing I wanted to circle back to is I wanted to give Charlie and Linda a shout out and just say That their names are Charlie and Linda Bloom in Santa Cruz. They’ve written five books and [00:11:00] they were a godsend.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Also they spent an hour with me and you on the phone  and said some really kind and encouraging words. And then Charlie’s checked in with me a couple times since and I’m incredibly grateful for their kindness and sharing their experience. Because it’s a lonely club that you never ever want to be a part of. And yet, once you’re a member, the people that can speak to it the best are those that have lived it. The words that mattered the most to me when I was in the thick of it were those from people who have also lost a child. The others didn’t hold much weight.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. And they were an incredible Godsend. I know that conversation was really healing and validating to your experience because people can say, “Oh, I’ve gone through grief”, but I think losing a child is a grief that is unparalleled to other loss – and not to have a hierarchy of suffering.

Joree Rose: And you found great value in someone who had been through it, and there were two things, if I may, that I observed you taking a lot of [00:12:00] solace in their words, was two things I think Linda said, was one, you will laugh again. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Laugh and smile. Yep. 

Joree Rose: You will do that again. I promise you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: That was big. Because in the moment, you don’t feel like that’s ever going to happen.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And the second one that I think you really, and I kept reminding you of this. I was really grateful as the, for lack of a better word, caretaker of your grief, right? During this process was they had said. “Don’t expect to do anything today, like if you get up, and if you eat a little bit of food and maybe take a short little walk, maybe get outside for just a moment, that is enough.”

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And that really gave me a lot of permission to become hyper protective of your energy. And your expectations on clients or podcast interviews or doing anything other than sleeping and [00:13:00] eating 

Dr. John Schinnerer: You provided a lot of food. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And you ate a lot. This was a way that you were working through this energy. You kept saying my grief was burning so much calories like you were just ravenous.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: The exhaustion of the emotion 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, I think one day I ate six meals 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah, and this is something that I also was really holding space for coming from the Jewish tradition of sitting shiva, which is the seven days of grieving in which you sit and you eat and that’s all you do is you just sit and I had found really great value in the ritual and the permission to do nothing other than just sit.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, we were joking last night about, how dead on that ritual is and that maybe they undershot it a little bit and it should be two [00:14:00] weeks. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah, no, no pun intended by saying it was dead on. But yeah. And I think I was just going to say, I think it can feel a lot harder to go through grief without something to hold on to, whether it’s a personal connection of someone who can validate your experience, or, whether it’s a religious or cultural foundation to draw upon or spirituality, but I’m always a fan of ritual and though I’ve experienced much death in my life, fortunately it hasn’t been for many years.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: So this was my first experience as an adult drawing upon this foundation and it was such permission.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And so let’s turn a little bit to the emotions and the physiological sensations because I think that’s, it’s been interesting. It’s my first experience with deep grief, and [00:15:00] it’s been interesting to be in it and to be observing it at the same time, at least at the time. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: I just want to say that piece in and of itself, that you have the awareness or the meta awareness to be looking at it and curious about it is a, so who you are, but also this is why we’re doing this episode right now – to share this, right? Because that meta awareness is gonna help many people. So what was your, embodied experience? And then when were you able to observe it? And when you did observe it, what were you noticing? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And to the listeners, if I repeat myself or if I stumble, you’ll have to bear with me.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I feel like I’m operating at about 80 percent of capacity. As I said, the first three days I was in shock and denial, did not want it to be real. Discovered that it wasn’t just my grief I was dealing with, but also Molly’s grief, my daughter’s, and not that I had a lot of time to think about it, [00:16:00] but I didn’t expect that because I just had never thought about it. I’d never been in it. And, I was in bed and sobbing and just on the couch for several days and knew at some level that I had to get back into routine because I was desperate for some semblance of normalcy, some glimmer of routine.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so I think I got back to the gym after three or four days. And it was a really light workout. I barely did anything. I think it was 30 minutes, but that felt good. It felt okay. I thought, I’m doing something normal. I’m getting back into a routine. This is helpful. But as far as the emotions that I felt – there was grief, anguish, some anger, some relief because Brett’s life had been largely one of pain and suffering.

Dr. John Schinnerer: He had a very difficult life. And so there was relief that he was out of his pain and suffering. There was a lot of gratitude – gratitude for where my relationship was with him when he died. Gratitude as we had worked really hard on our relationship for about the past three years, and we’re in a fantastic place and I’m supremely grateful for that.

Dr. John Schinnerer: There was a lot of gratitude after the first three days for the kindness and thoughtfulness and outpouring of love that we received and then we can touch on that a little bit later. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: There was exhaustion, there was tiredness, there was heaviness, difficulty breathing

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: What did you physically feel in your body? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: So physiologically it was, constriction in my throat, so hard swallowing, difficulty breathing, but that was more about the tightness of my chest, this extreme weight on my chest, upset stomach at times, really heavy limbs, really difficult thinking clearly, and just the fatigue was amazing.

It just felt like slogging through mud to try and move, like the heaviness is not, it’s there for a purpose and evolutionarily, the purpose is to keep you close to home, to let people take care of you and nurture you back to health. And so that was the sadness, the grief, the anguish. And then occasionally there would be, these thoughts, these angry thoughts of,” God damn it, Brett, why’d you have to die?  What were you thinking? Why didn’t you test those drugs? Whatever it was, you were taking.”  There was anger at myself for not being able to protect him, and I know that’s irrational, and yet it’s part of our job as fathers. And then I think there was anger at something larger, the  universe, God, for taking him at such a young age. And I knew all those were simply emotions. They don’t have to make sense. They’re not rational.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so again, I just tried to allow for them without too much judgment. Yeah. And as I said, like the dynamics, the family dynamics are interesting because I might be having a good morning on one day and then get hit by Molly’s grief that would drag me down back into my grief or vice versa. And so it’s not a matter of just dealing with your own grief. It’s a matter of managing other loved ones grief as well.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Can I say something about that one really quick, that, that was something that Charlie and Linda had also shared about. You may not always be able to be there for Molly’s grief as they had experienced. They couldn’t have always been there for their other children. And I think that’s a really challenging and fascinating emotional dynamic to navigate because there were moments that you weren’t available and that was okay.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. Because you were so in what you were in and also I’m so grateful I was there so much to be able to be there for Molly in those moments when you were too heavy in your own grief and, so that support system to just hold the space for what you weren’t emotionally present or available to attend to. You guys both needed permission to be in your space without having to, I don’t even know the word, but it just, it was a powerful practice to observe both of you in your own space when you couldn’t always attend to the other or you couldn’t attend to her per se. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, some of the people that I first spoke to, because the conversations are challenging when it first happens and I still have a bunch of conversations to have with other people, friends and family.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And it. It requires bandwidth, like it requires a little bit of energy. And so it’s tough to come by at times. So I spoke to Charlie and Linda. And then I also spoke to an old client of mine, a mom of a client of mine, Diana Woodbury. And she has lost not one son, but two sons.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I was with them. I was working with the family when she lost her first son. And it was a terrible experience. And what they found out later was that there was a heart condition in the genetic makeup that led to these two deaths. But she was saying that people were saying some stuff to her and her husband, Spencer, that wasn’t helpful.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I really, I’m grateful for the conversation that I had with Diana as well. ‘Cause again, the experience means everything at that point, but people say some things, I think they’re trying to being helpful, but it’s easy to say the wrong thing to someone in grief, much harder to say something that is helpful or supportive, I would argue. And people told her and her husband something like, “when you lose a child, it changes you forever and you can’t be there in the same way for your other children ever again,” which to me is a really messed up thing to say. That’s a huge judgment 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: and assumption, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: right?

Dr. John Schinnerer: And the internal response is “you don’t know me, you don’t know my grief. You don’t know them. Maybe if you know them, you don’t know their grief. And how it’s going to play out.” And so she took that to heart, her and her husband, and they vowed to each other that they were not going to do that.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so they it sounded to me, my interpretation was, they put aside their grief when they were with their kids, and then would grieve on their own in private, maybe together. And that’s different from how Charlie and Linda did it. That’s different from how I’ve done it.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I don’t think there’s a right way there. I think it’s just, it’s whatever way you can get through. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And if I may make the observation, love, that every [00:24:00] day, every moment of the day, has been a different emotional wave you’ve been riding. So there might have been moments where maybe you could say, I’m gonna do this one thing.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And then the next moment it changes. So part of what I’m hearing is the need for flexibility in how you show up in the grief, both to yourself and whomever you’re with, because one hard and fast rule as I’ve witnessed is not going to be able to be applied because there’s moments within moments in which your mood, your energy, your attention, your focus, your exhaustion level, your sadness changes.

And there’s sometimes no warning. There’s no trigger, right? There’s not always going to be an indication that you’re going to have this shift.  

Dr. John Schinnerer: yeah, it could be a thought. It could be a TV show. It could be like – Halloween was really tough for me. Yeah. I didn’t see that coming. And the waves of anguish and grief are unlike anything I’ve experienced emotionally before, they’re so powerful and yeah, I don’t know where I was going with that.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: One of the things I can add and maybe go into more of having found such value in that early conversation with her, it almost felt like gave you some more ability to start receiving more of the condolences and that switch from the resistance you had and the denial around not wanting it to be real, to being overcome with how much love and support is out there for you was also a big shift.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And that was beautiful to witness you taking it in. And at times I saw that it was too much and overwhelming. And yet when you got through that wave of emotion to sit back and the, [00:26:00] wow, there’s a lot of people holding space for me and my family, for Brett’s memory, for this grief, for this love, for the impact I’ve made on them, other families, right? It just, it was beautiful to witness you receiving it. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Thanks. And I think that’s been a practice that I’ve been working on for several years, trying to receive love. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Oh, I know. Believe me. I know 

Dr. John Schinnerer: from others and, honestly, genuinely, sincerely accepting the love of others.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And taking it into my heart. I’ve been trying to look at what are the lessons I’m supposed to learn from this and one of the huge takeaways is just that – just how much love and support there is out there for myself and my family, because honestly, it was quite humbling. I had no idea.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I really didn’t know who was listening or paying attention [00:27:00] or and it turns out there was way more people than I ever realized going back to people that I knew as a child, going back to high school teachers, friends, clients my men’s group, people who’ve been on the podcast, yes, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so I think one of the lessons is really working to receive the love and support of others.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Can I jump in with something?

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Can you share what, Africa, and as you said in the beginning, that’s going to be a whole ‘nother conversation for us to talk about because there was so much richness in our three and a half weeks that we got to spend in Africa. [00:28:00] And you had said something powerful within a day or two.

We weren’t even home 24 hours before we found out about Brett’s death and the Africa experience was still very much with us. And you had drawn this really fascinating, I don’t know if it’s a parallel, but insight you gained that maybe this was some significance of timing of what being in Africa had shown you about the cycle of life or the circle of life.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And I think so, when we were on safari, we would see, kills from the lionesses. And, one time they had killed an antelope, and there was this drama that was playing out on several levels around them. The lionesses were at the carcass, and there’s jackals, hyenas, there’s marabou storks, 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: there’s vultures, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: and they’re [00:29:00] all waiting their turn.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And it just made me realize that even in death, we are giving new life, whether it’s a tree or an animal or a human. And that, one of the things that keeps me going is this idea that we’re just, basically energy living in this five layer meat sack. And I like the idea that energy, that essence continues on after death.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I’m a big Lord of the Rings fan. And, one of my favorite lines from that is from Gandalf when he’s talking to one of the hobbits, who’s really fearful of death because there’s a horde of orcs descending on the city. And he says, “death isn’t a door that closes. It’s a door that opens.”

And I’ve always found solace in that idea that death is just the beginning to a new adventure. 

I don’t know what the truth is, but I find that belief comforting. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Your truth. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: So yeah, I think, just that realization that we’re each given a life – for some that life is long and just, and for some that life is short and for some that life is endless pain and difficult and others tend to skate through life. So yeah and the other thing that I guess I’ve realized from all this, and this was pointed out by a 21 year old client of mine who had a profound text to support me. But he was saying that, one of the things you’ve always taught me is that we use these tragedies to teach others so that they can get through it with a little more ease.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Which is partly why we’re sitting here doing this conversation when I’ve only had four hours sleep and feel like my brain is full of cotton. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. You’re nothing if not always wanting to be in service of others. [00:31:00] One of the things that we have always done, and I’ve known that you’ve done this for a long time, is given yourself opportunities to feel more deeply when you’re sad.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And one of the ways I’ve observed you doing that is sometimes when you’re sad, intentionally watching a sad movie. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Or listening to sad music. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: I was going to say the music part next, because I think the music has really become a cornerstone of this grief process. You know what I mean?

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: The other day you said you made a grief playlist. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. The capstone of that was “I Grieve” by Peter Gabriel, which was gut wrenching at first. And then I got to the point where I could listen to it. And get through the song to the second half, where he talks about reengaging with life. And I really like that idea of, grief as partially learning to restore and reopen your heart. Because I do think life is a series of events where we learn to open ourselves up to connection with others. And inevitably we get hurt or disappointed or let down or they die. And we close up, we close off to self protect. And I think one of the main challenges of life is to never let that closing off be permanent, that you want to strive to open yourself up again to connection as soon as you safely can.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And that’s the cycle – it just continues to repeat. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And I see you’ve cracked more open than I’ve ever seen you. In a way of how you receive so much. I think that was something you had previously been in resistance to. So if there’s any personal meaning or lesson to learn for you [00:33:00] personally, I think this has been a big one.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, I think, just receiving help, asking for help, talking about it with people, which, I would say early on that I’m practicing talking to people because It was hard. It brought up emotion, sometimes I would well up, my tears would well up, my eyes would tear up or I’d just start crying, and so I started trying to talk to people and let them know what had happened and, there’s a lot of things that I’ve realized I have to be grateful for and one of the things was that I have this very large network of male friends that are really high quality, what I would say are evolved men that I can go to and talk about my [00:34:00] grief and they can feel it. And I actually have more friends that can do that than I actually have the time and energy to reach out to. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: But again, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I am so grateful for that. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And that’s been a carefully cultivated process.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I’ve sought that out for years. And a big part of that has been, the podcast has been hugely beneficial in that, because these men are all over the world at this point and I, I also remember, I shared what happened with my men’s group, I think six days after it happened. And that was tough. And those guys were amazing. And I felt a little guilty because I’m like, this is their group, I’m leading the group. And yet I told them, “I’m sharing this with you because it’s authentic and real and I [00:35:00] would not be doing my job if I tried to hide this and pretend like everything’s all right when I’m asking you to open up and vulnerably share what’s going on in your life. So I’m trying to model what I want to see from you all. And you do that. That’s why I’m sharing this.” And they were exceptional. And I just keep thanking people for, creating the space and witnessing my grief. Because that’s all you can do, basically. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And they said 

Dr. John Schinnerer: something about, grief needs to be witnessed.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: as I’ve shared, gone on for me over the past month, just with what’s gone on in Israel, and then with Brett’s death, I’m feeling grief on multiple levels of a meta level. Just. [00:36:00] for the suffering that’s happening in the world, the uncertainty of the state of Israel and the safety of the Jewish people that grief on this very meta level, but it’s very personal to then have been so delved into grief with you and observing it and being with it and holding space for it.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: I think there’s also something really powerful as the caretaker of someone in grief, and I just want to speak to that for a minute because as your partner this wasn’t my child who died and I’m incredibly sad and heartbroken for you, for Molly, for the future, like all of the things. And in not knowing where do I name that? How do I convey that to you without, this isn’t my grief though. And yet it’s very real, compounded with, the grief of [00:37:00] just the world and to know when, and I think there was only one day in the past two and a half weeks where I had a little breakdown of what was going on in the world. And it was the only moment that I really needed you to step out of your grief to attend to where I was at for the moment.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And that was also appropriate because that was what was real and what was arising. And it’s just this very delicate balance of also self care. For me to make sure I have the energy to take care of everybody. And that’s always my role that I choose and I love, and I thrive in giving and sharing my love.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: But it’s also been a space of, I don’t know how to show up here other than hold space. And so my point I’m trying to make is there’s no supposed to. It’s unconditional love and acceptance and holding space. And you and I have talked many times, I’m [00:38:00] sure many times in our joint podcast episodes of how you and I support each other as partners is the question of how can I support you right now?

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And that’s continued to be an ongoing presence for us in this process. And when I ask how can I support you? Sometimes your answers have been very dark and filled with anger and sadness, but I also know that I also can’t do much other than say, I’m here. I see you. I’m right by your side.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: I’m holding space for you. You’re exactly feeling what you’re supposed to be feeling because there’s no supposed to 

Dr. John Schinnerer: know. And you’ve been amazing. And interestingly, I think this process has brought us even closer together. So let’s talk a minute about people around us that don’t or haven’t responded well to this tragedy. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Because we were talking about having different reactions to that, [00:39:00] and one of the ways I’ve dealt with that is, I played this song for you, I think yesterday, Soul Asylum’s String of Pearls, and there’s a line in there about a preacher at a funeral who is presiding over a funeral and he actually runs away from the funeral because, “death is one thing that really made him nervous,” which is funny. And yet I think for many people, it’s absolutely true that death is the number one fear of most people on average. The death of a child is even more so and I think that some people really struggle with dealing with the concept and don’t know what to say. It can be too overwhelming for people, it might be too close to home, it might be too flooding, and so I’ve really tried [00:40:00] to have little expectation for how people respond. Yeah. And when they respond, at least at this point I just thank them for their kind words, their kind thoughts, their good intentions and try not to get too hung up on the particulars. And even if they don’t say anything at all, yeah. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: What’s one of my favorite phrases within Buddhist ideology – expectations are the quickest path of suffering. And yet it’s still real when someone’s absence of presence isn’t there. So both are true and you’re right, I think it’s so triggering personally to so many people.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And, so if I just want to advise you listening, it’s okay to not know what to say. And I often will, when I’m especially doing couples work and talking about how to have effective communication and we always want to have the right words, I often like to [00:41:00] lead with, if you don’t know what to say, I don’t know what to say.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: That is saying something. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Let’s go over some of the helpful things you can say, to someone who is grieving 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. What has felt good to you to hear? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I think when people say, “I know nothing that I can say can take away your pain.” I know. And I haven’t had this experience, but I know some people will get triggered by, I know how you feel.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Or, people will go into their own death experiences with death where they’ve lost people that they love. I think that it’s really hard. I think, “I don’t know what to say.” “I’m happy to sit here with you.” I think that people will ask, “what can I do to support you? Or what can I do to help?”

Dr. John Schinnerer: And when you’re in the middle of that grief and anguish, you have no clue. Like you can’t even think clearly. And it might be better if you’re willing to do so to say something like, “what day can I bring over dinner? “ Put an idea in there. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Something specific. You don’t have to make a decision.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And that depends on how close you are to the individual. But yeah, I think, what Linda said about you will laugh and smile again. I think that was helpful. I think, don’t have any expectations. About getting stuff done try to be really kind to yourself or have great self compassion.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: I’ve never seen you do that better. Love. You’ve been exceptional at that. Honestly, I know that something that, did wasn’t easy, but even just Yesterday, it was a hard morning and I encourage you to cancel your client, you cancel the call. There’s no expectation to anybody else right now.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And that’s not selfish. That is pure self care. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: No, it’s the ultimate get out of jail free card, right? My son just died. And then everyone says, Oh, no, no problem. Don’t even worry about it. And it’s, I’m joking a little bit, but it’s true. And there’s a reason for that.

Because it’s brutal. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And I want [00:43:00] to come to this idea of humor for a second. Share what you’ve always defined the definition of humor. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Humor is tragedy plus 30 seconds. Now, you can argue, how long the 30 seconds is, that varies, but it’s tragedy plus some amount of time. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And that was something, I think it was a little over a week and you were over here and we were having dinner with my daughter and you were beginning to laugh and that was you later on said, Oh, okay, I feel about the heaviness that I have been under this weight is beginning to lift even a little bit because I was able to laugh and joke and we’re getting to that point where we’re able to laugh a little bit more easily.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And even, yesterday we were playing cards and I was just beating your ass and you’re like, sure, beat the grieving guy!

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, sure. Take advantage of the grieving guy. He can’t even think straight or see,

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: and then I, came back with how long [00:44:00] are you going to use that card for, which was funny because it was a card game too.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And to not feel guilty that you’re laughing, even if you’re laughing in some way about the situation. No, I think it’s important. And ironically or not, timing wise, here we are recording this days before we’re going to release it, but Last night, we saw Jerry Seinfeld and Jim Gaffigan and tonight we’re seeing Chelsea Handler.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: So it seems like some divine timing that you had already had an entire weekend full of comedy planned for us. And we went out last night and it was a 70 degree night sitting on a rooftop bar in San Francisco with gorgeous sunset. And I know for me right now, the gratitude of those little moments are huge.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, absolutely. And to not take for granted the aliveness or the vibrancy [00:45:00] of the simple things. And then we got a laugh and we laughed for two hours and it was so good. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And it, and so it creates this brief respite where you can forget for a period of time. Yeah. And it’s priceless. Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And it was funny ’cause then we saw a friend of yours after the concert in the line for the bathroom, and then she’s oh my gosh, I’m thinking of you all the time, or something like that. And I’m like, oh, yep, there it is. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Right back in it. And not her fault, she did nothing wrong, but 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: it was loving and it was a reminder when we had a few hours of reminders.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And yeah, I don’t feel guilty about getting back in touch with laughing and joking and smiling. I think that’s the work, in part and it’s returning to the land of the living and humor is, I place a high value on humor. I always have. Yeah. It serves a, an important function that, calms our nervous system. It allows us to think in creative new ways, come up with new ideas. [00:46:00] It’s connecting.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And even Molly has been able to begin to joke about it. We call it death humor. And I think, that gallows sense of humor is helpful. I’ve had that in the line of work that I do, we do, I’ve always had the ability to laugh at dark shit.

Yeah. With my clients, and I think it’s served us all well, 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: and Brett would want you to laugh, right? 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Just looping back around and maybe as we wrap up one of my favorite phrases again, it draws upon my Jewish tradition is “may their memory continue to be a blessing.” And I’ve said those words to many people who have been grieving, and It feels that there’s this ongoing [00:47:00] honoring. So it’s a way of “let’s keep their memory alive. Let’s make their life be remembered in life, not in the death.” And, like you said, it’s a doorway into what’s next, but, if you’re spiritual, look for reminders to have them show you their presence, I 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I think I’m going with butterflies.

So whenever a butterfly shows up to me, that’s Brett, 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Beautiful. My spiritual belief is the more you look for that, the more it’ll be there. And I think anything we can do to find comfort, no one can tell us what’s right or wrong for comfort, for security, and making sense of my own emotions, safety, connections.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, and one of the things we talk about is – pick the belief that serves you best. And I think it’s never been more true than in dealing with death. Yeah. And butterflies make a lot of sense to me because there’s that metamorphosis, right? There’s that change of going [00:48:00] from a caterpillar to a butterfly.

So yeah, hopefully, for those of you that can handle the heaviness of this episode, it’s helped you to put some words on maybe some of the things that you’ve experienced in your own grief. That’s my hope. Anyway. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Can I ask you a question, love? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: You may. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: How has this past hour of sharing publicly your grief, how are you feeling now than maybe how you felt at the beginning of this?

How has this served you? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: It’s been difficult and challenging in the sense of, I’ve felt some deep emotion a couple times. And I also want to model, particularly for men, how to feel. I want to give men permission to feel. And all of it gives meaning to my suffering and that reduces my suffering. It makes it purposeful. It’s not random and meaningless. And so it’s helpful. 

It doesn’t take the pain away, but it’s helpful. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Thank you for your courage and your vulnerability to share it so soon. I think it speaks to the authenticity of the work you and I both value so greatly is showing in real time. Look, these aren’t just tools I teach.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: This is what I’m using in practice every moment of almost every day. And, for me during the past month to just have continued to draw upon Those foundations and mindfulness and meditation, one breath, one moment, one day at a time. Don’t forget to breathe, tune into gratitude, have self compassion, accept what’s arising.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: These are the tenets that I fundamentally [00:50:00] believe in and this is not a dress rehearsal. We’re here to utilize. And so for you and I to share in real time, look, this is what we’re doing to get through this. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. I think I’m really telling this to Molly. It’s one breath, one hour, one day at a time, if you can’t do a full day, do an hour. If you can’t do an hour, do one breath. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: That’s the best we can do right now. Little steps. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And one of my favorite phrases is we’re all right and we’re already getting through it. Like we’re, just having gotten through this past minute, we’re already getting through it. You have a 100 percent success rate of getting through everything you never thought you could.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: So again, thank you for so vulnerably being willing and open to sharing your journey in this. And I am incredibly grateful to bear witness to you. And it has deepened my love for you immensely and really to share our work with [00:51:00] others. In a really powerful, authentic, honest way is really important.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And thank you for providing the container for the last two and a half weeks. You’ve been invaluable. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Always. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I can’t overstate it. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: All right, you guys, if this spoke to you, if you know someone who’s grieving, please share this. This is important work. This is, I think, something you don’t realize how important it is until you need it.

And so we really hope that we can spread the word of permission for allowing all emotions to arrive and exist, even the ones you don’t like. I often say, people will say to me, but Joy, how do I accept something I don’t like? But acceptance doesn’t make, or not accepting it doesn’t make it go away.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: It just makes your resistance to it bigger. And whatever challenge you may be facing may not be as permanent as death. Coming to acceptance of what is without judgment is. Definitely a way to get with a little [00:52:00] greater ease and self compassion. I invite you to continue practicing these tools that we teach.

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: And if this spoke to you please, like we said, share with others who may need to hear this or rating a review so we can help you in service to helping others heal. 

Joree Rose, Top Couples Counselor: Take care, everyone. Be well.