How Men Can Be More Authentic, Real & Happy

The Great Masculinity Masquerade – Time to Ditch the Mask?

Men gotta live by a set of rules. Where these rules came from, nobody really knows. They are a dusty leftover from Sparta and the time in the movie 300. These rules comprise the Man Box. Rules like don’t be weak, don’t give in to others, don’t back down, don’t lose, don’t feel, don’t be feminine, don’t ask for help. It’s actually a lot of ways you AREN’T supposed to be. And so we wear a mask to protect what’s really going on underneath.

Enter Keith E. Edwards, PhD, who spent years studying this swamp and breaking it down in a way that actually makes sense. His work dives deep into the three big phases of manhood: masking, unmasking, and becoming. Because let’s be honest—most of us are walking around with some serious emotional armor, terrified that if we let the world see what’s underneath, we’ll get laughed out of the room and left behind.

Here’s the kicker: every guy thinks he is the only dude wearing a mask. The only one secretly insecure, afraid, or uncertain. Turns out? We all are. Society tells men to act tough, stay dominant, and avoid anything remotely vulnerable. But that pressure doesn’t just hurt women and marginalized groups—it pits men against each other and cages them in a box that isn’t big enough for your foot, let alone your body.

The struggle is real when it comes to unmasking. The second a guy lets his guard down, that mask snaps right back into place—like it’s on a bungee cord of constricted masculinity. But here’s the good news: awareness is the first step to changing this shit. With what Keith calls mask consciousness, men can start peeling back the layers, aligning their actions with their values, and figuring out what authentic masculinity actually looks like—for themselves, not for the world’s approval.

So, fellas, are you ready to stop pretending and start becoming? Because let’s face it—wearing that damn mask is f*cking exhausting and it ain’t making you any happier.

To listen to this one on Podomatic (where all this intellectual splendor is housed!), click here.

To watch it on video, click below.

If you would like to read the transcript, read on brave adventurer!

How Men Can Be More Authentic w/ Keith Edwards, Ph.D. – Transcript

Dr. John Schinnerer:  Hey, everybody. This is Dr. John back with another life changing episode of the Evolved Caveman podcast. And today I’m really excited to have with me as my guest, Dr. Keith Edwards. And Keith helps transformational leaders make the complex uncomplicated for leadership, learning, equity. His research, writing, and speaking have received national awards in recognition.

And what really caught my interest is he’s the author of the recent book, Unmasking. Toward Authentic Masculinity, which is based on more than 15 years of research. Keith illuminates men’s masking unmasking and becoming to help men develop their own authentic masculinity. And even though men as a group have power, individual men often feel powerless.

These contradictory experiences contribute to men’s hurting, hurting others, and being hurt. Keith shares strategies to help us all better engage the men in our lives with empathy, reach them with [00:01:00] compassion, effectively hold them accountable, and help them to become the men they aspire to be. He also co edited the book, Addressing Sexual Violence in Higher Ed, Education, and co authored the book on Comprehensive Sexual Violence Prevention.

And his TEDx talk on preventing sexual violence has been viewed around the world. Keith, how you doing? And welcome. Thanks for coming here.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I’m doing great. It’s a wonderful day and I’m happy to be here and happy to be in this conversation with you. Been looking forward to this all week long.

So thanks for having me. You already

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: got your run in. So nice job. I

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: got my run in. We were talking about this before. I got my run in. It’s very warm here today and I’m still cooking a little bit from that.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I’m fired up and ready to go. I’m always cooking. Yeah. That’s just me. So do me a favor and start us off just telling us about.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: How you got to this point in your life and writing a book on masculinity, like, why the hell masculinity?

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I’ve been not writing this book for 15 years. And now it’s written, [00:02:00] and it’s done, and it’s out. We’ll come back to that.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Congratulations, by the way.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Thank you. Thank you. One, I’ve been a man my whole life, been a boy or a man my whole life, so I’ve had that experience my whole life, thought about that, wrestled with that, been confused about that understood that, challenged by that, and I think that’s been a thread really since my whole life and then thinking about that really thoughtfully in high school and college and really exploring some things.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work Expert: And then when I was doing my Ph. D. I was exploring many different topics, because that’s who I am, I like lots of different things. And I settled on men and masculinities because it was just so interesting to me. And the more I learned about it, the more I learned about myself, the more I learned about my dad, the more I learned about my friends, the more I learned about my relationships.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And it just continued to open me up and understand. And so I did my dissertation research for my doctorate on college men’s identity development, and I asked college men what it meant to them to be a man, how that changed over [00:03:00] time, what affected those changes, and engaged in some really in depth interviews with them about that.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And then after my dissertation, I interviewed them five years later, and then five years later, and then five years later, and I’ll interview them again here in three years. And so we’ve had this longitudinal conversation with 10 men who are very different in terms of their identities and in terms of their engagement in college from scholarship athletes to sexual violence prevention educators to trans men to head of the black student organization to fraternity presidents just all sorts of experiences, and all sorts of different identities.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And the theme that sort of came from that conversation was they all had the same secret, which was unbeknownst to them, which was I know what everybody expects of me as a man. I’m very clear, right? And we talk about that in terms of the man box. Don’t cry, be tough, eat meat, drive trucks, don’t do this, [00:04:00] don’t do that.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: The things that we all know. I know what’s expected of me. And then, eventually, they would look around, even though we were alone in the room, and they would whisper like, But that’s not. And I’m like, Oh! Tell me about that. And they would look around and be like, Sometimes I pretend. Or I fake it.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And I’d be like, Yeah! And the metaphor was that they came to was wearing a mask. And so there’s these expectations. I know it comes naturally to all, everyone else. But for me, it doesn’t quite fit because I’m too tall. I’m too short. I’m too thin. I’m too big. I’m too smart. I’m not smart enough.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Whatever the case may be. And so I pretend. And I put on this mask. And then we talked about the masking and how they do that and the consequences of that and unmasking. And then later in life, we had conversations about how that continued to play out at work and at [00:05:00] home and family and having kids and all of these different dynamics.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And then then later conversations, a different process emerged from masking to unmasking to then becoming which we maybe can circle back to. So as I said, I did that 15 years ago, 18 years now, and I’ve been wanting to write this book the whole time. So I’ve been frustrated with myself and a number of new year’s resolutions was write the book with some expletives slipped in there.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And and the book is out and available wherever you get your books. Thanks.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. And thank you for sharing that. I, one of the things we talked about earlier was this whole idea of the secret that men share, but none of us think we share the same secret. We think it’s my

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: secret. Yeah. And it’s a shared

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: secret.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: It’s, it, that resonates with me from like the age of 12, right? Where I always felt like a fish out of water in terms of being a young man. And I thought it was just me growing up and then, having worked with men for 25 years, came to realize that, Every man that I talked [00:06:00] to had the same experience at some age, at some level, but generally for the majority of their life that I’m a poser, that I’m a fish out of water, that I don’t truly belong.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And everybody else, it just comes naturally, right? Which then increases that distance. What is wrong with me? And

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: one of the things you said is that everyone knows about this man box. Yeah. And I don’t think that’s true. I think we all know what’s expected of us, but I don’t think we know that it’s a socially constructed set of expectations and a mask that we wear that we don’t know that we’re playing a game.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. We’re not even aware of the game or that it’s a game.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Yeah. I think I’ve done the man box activity. First off, Paul Kibble do it, who I understand initiated that. Yeah. And I’ve done that man box activity. And what I what I, what the experience of doing that activity is, nobody learns anything new.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: But they have a new way of understanding, [00:07:00] right? And so that really connects with they don’t, maybe don’t know about a man box, but they know, don’t cry. They know, be tough. They know all these things. And then you put it up on the screen and you put the boxes around it and all these things imposing. And it’s Oh, that makes so much sense.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And yeah. And I think the, my participants when they were in college, so I talked with them when they were in college. They really understood what was expected of them as men, and then particularly as college men, and to your point, they didn’t feel like they measured up, thought everybody else did, and they each were like, I have this unique strategy, in which I fake it, or I perform, or I put on this mask.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And One of the things that emerged later on is looking back is once they had language for this mask through the conversations, they noticed it all the time, they noticed it in themselves Oh, why did I just lie about that? That’s ridiculous. Or why did I pretend that I cared about that?

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I haven’t slept with 200

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: women.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Yeah. Or why am I lying about [00:08:00] how much I drank? Why am I why am I lying about not going to class and not buying the book when I definitely did?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah, I talked with Ashanti Branch about growing up as a young man in Oakland, and he was saying that it was social death to reveal how smart you actually were and how good you were doing in school, to be smart.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah,

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: and I think there’s some intersections with racism there as well, but one of the thing the key things was that college masculinity, as these participants defined it, was partying. That was what is expected of college, partying, and partying included five very specific things. It was Doing drugs, drinking to excess, having competitive heterosexual sex, not preparing for academics, which we just pointed to, and then breaking whatever rules, which could be swearing, being loud in the dining hall, whatever.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. Stealing golf carts of security. Oh, wait, exactly.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Whatever is a transgression. And I just never made sense of that not preparing like you were talking about college what’s [00:09:00] expected of college man is to not prepare and it didn’t make sense and I kept hearing it over and over again. And as a qualitative researcher if things don’t make sense you keep hearing them, you have to make sense of them.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And then it just clicked for me. Every action movie you’ve ever seen, Rambo, James Bond, Jason Bourne, whatever, the hero knows how to do everything. He can speak any language. He can operate any military style weaponry, including those that haven’t been invented. He knows every form of martial arts.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: He can hack any computer system and he never studies. It’s not like on the plane to Serbia learning Rosetta Stone, right? He just shows up and can speak the language fluently. And I think what speaks to the man box,

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: sorry to interrupt, I think that speaks to the man box rules of be self reliant and don’t ask for help.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And that what we learn is it’s mainly to be successful. Get an A. To get the promotion,

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: but not if you have to prepare or [00:10:00] study

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: or work at it,

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: something must be

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: wrong with you.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Which actually is funny because it goes against Carol Dweck’s whole thing on growth versus fixed mindset. So it encourages us to have a fixed mindset.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: This is what I am. This is what I’m not

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: really hamstrings and like hamstrings. And when we get to that, like I got to that point in calculus in high school where I was like, shit, I’m not understanding this. I guess that’s the end of my math career. I’m just topping out. I guess that’s it for me.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And then I got, you get a little bit depressed and a little bit anxious and you back off the material rather than looking for other ways to go after the material and learn it and realizing that everyone gets to that point of struggling in some material at some point.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And I had men telling me stories about studying on the down low.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: One guy was in his fraternity house in his room and all the other guys say, it’s Thursday night, we’re going out, we’re going out, come out with us. He’s no, I got this girl I’ve been talking to. And I think I got a real shot of hooking up with her. You all go right. And they’re like, oh, good luck, whatever.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And they leave. And then he studies, pulls the book out from [00:11:00] underneath his desk. And studies because he knows he’s not just going to magically know how to do that chemistry, he’s got to work at it, but he’s lying about this thing about this, that man box is so good. College men are lying about studying for class because it is contradictory to what is expected of them to prove their manhood.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And I think that happens in high school. I think there’s some intersections with race. I think there’s a lot of other things going on. Another thing that’s interesting related to this is some of the men who experienced oppression, whether it was Black men or Latino men or working class men felt, I don’t, I know that’s what’s expected of me.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I don’t have that luxury. I’m going way in debt. My family’s making huge sacrifices. Black men aren’t expected to succeed here. So I know that’s expected of me as a man, but I don’t have the luxury of proving my manhood by not studying or stealing golf carts. Cause if I get caught, it’s going to be real [00:12:00] different than if y’all get caught.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yep.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah, I don’t have the white privilege to rely on.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Absolutely. And so there’s a the expectations were there, but some men felt like proving their manhood was a privilege. They didn’t quite have access to

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: what extent do you get into the intersectionality of identities where, let’s say I’m a black gay male college student and each of those are separate lenses through which I would view the world.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And so to what point do you take that into account? Cause I think that’s an interesting theory that I really haven’t. Spent much time thinking about, but I think it’s really important.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Yeah. It’s really central. And I want to separate out two things that often had to get conflated multiple identities.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: and intersectionality. So multiple identities is black and gay and a man. Those are multiple identities. And then intersectionality is that person experiencing gender [00:13:00] privilege, racism, and homophobia, and experiencing these different intersecting forms of power. So my 10 men not a ton include four men of color, two gay men, one trans men, working class men from wealthy backgrounds.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: So a lot of these things.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Just to clarify, the trans man is female who transitioned to male?

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Yes. Okay. Was assigned female at birth, lived their life as a girl, came to college, and when we first did the interviews, was not passing as a man at

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: all. Because that’s fascinating to me, that experience, because I read a book, I think it’s called Athlete, of someone who transitioned in that direction.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yep. Yep. Then got into amateur boxing, but the first, I think it was like 25 to 30 years of his life, grew up female. And is exposed to the man box because that’s our culture, but grew up as a female in the man box and then became male and now has much more [00:14:00] pressure on him to behave like a traditional male.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: So really felt the weight of man box only the past, five to 10 years.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: It’s a totally different experience.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: It is. And I also would say it’s not. So this participant, when we first did the interviews was just recently living their life in this way. And it just started binding and making a transition, was not passing.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Most people would interact with this person and assume that there are, and so he was literally proving his manhood. The other nine participants were figuratively proving their man and doing the same things, swearing, posture, working out like the same thing. So their strategies were very similar. Five years later, when I did the five year followup, I did a focus group with some of the men.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And when he came in the room I literally did not recognize him. I’m like, I’m sorry, you’re in the wrong [00:15:00] room. We’re having this focus group. And he was like, he had a beard and the whole thing, and there’s no way. anyone would ever interact with him in any way and have any clue that he was born female or that he was even trans.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And he tells a great story about working in a small engineering company. And there’s a new like 20 people engineering company. There’s a new woman who starts working there. He’s on his way to a meeting with some of the other engineers. He stops and says, nice to meet you. Tell me a little bit about you, just chit chatting with her.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And then he goes to the meeting, he gets the meeting. And all of his peers are like, Oh, we saw you talking to her. You totally want to get with her. You don’t want to do that. And he’s wow, they don’t have any idea that I’m gay, let alone trans. They don’t know that this is so far from my experience.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: He has this sort of dual reaction of wow, we just really don’t talk about our personal lives at all. Because he was completely out in his life, both as being gay and as being trans. And a [00:16:00] computing company, you just don’t talk about life outside work, right? Those are geeks, he would say in his language, but he talked about it as they put that mask on him, right?

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: He wasn’t doing that in this interaction with her, but they saw that interaction and they assumed you want to get with her. You want to be with her, like you’re trying to hook up, right? So they put that mask on and because this was in the focus group, the other men were like, wow, that’s really.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: What a unique experience you have as a gay trans man, we can’t, wait a minute, people put that mask on me all the time. And I just assumed they thought I was trying to get with her and I didn’t even know it. So they, when other people would do that to them, they just thought, oh, you see something I’m not even aware of.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And so it was oh my gosh. So other, we put the mask on ourselves, both intentionally and consciously. Unintentionally and unconsciously, when we only realize it like days later and what was I doing? And then other people put the mask on us and make assumptions about our choices and our behavior and our [00:17:00] decisions.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And then media puts it on us as well, right? So social media, movies, TV, right? With the action hero kind of stereotype that socializes

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: us and that’s where

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I think the danger for me really lies is in that unconscious and unintentionally wearing the mask where we don’t even realize it’s happening. And so one of the reasons I do this podcast is to try and insert a little bit of daylight.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Or breathing room between self and mask. So you have some awareness that this is what’s going on. You have some awareness that this is socially constructed. That this is not your fault. You didn’t ask to be socialized this way. It is your responsibility, however, to evolve beyond it.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: You got it. Let me tell you a a story and then I want to come back to the intersectionality.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Let’s just go to the intersectionality. My, my participants were talking about the multiple masks they wear. So there’s the mask, but it’s not the only mask. So the mask is the dominant culture. It’s the man [00:18:00] boxes, all the things that we tell all men that we all know. Don’t cry, be tough.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: All of those different things. And so all of the men knew that and then some of them were like, but there’s also gay masculinity and sometimes I have to put on that and it’s different. But then there’s black masculinity and sometimes I have to do that and it’s different. And there’s Latino masculinity, working masculinity and rural masculinity and urban masculinity.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: all of those are

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: multiple too.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. I was going to say there’s a couple of types of Latino masculinity.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Absolutely. Caballeroismo

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: and machismo.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Yeah,

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: not sure about those black

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: masculinity is in a rural Alabama is different than black masculinity and a design firm in LA is different than black masculinity in a community center in Minneapolis.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And the same person if they go to the site if they go from LA to the south, that black masculinity may shift and right adapt and survive.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And what if you’re a black college man in class. With six other black men and a white [00:19:00] woman professor, which basket you wear now, right? Just in that room, you might engage in this way and then engage in this way to be black enough for them.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Not too black for them and navigating that. What happens if it’s just not six black men, but what if it’s three black men and three black women? And so they talk about wearing a mask is. Exhausting and has consequences wearing multiple masks is even more like it’s not just hard to wear masks, which one am I doing now, which one and navigating all that.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And so that the multiple masks and then intersectionality is. I, one of my participants, working class, very poor, Latino, very committed to addressing issues facing the Latino community and really being an advocate and getting feedback that he dominates the meetings and cuts women off. So here you have someone facing classism, oppression, racism, but also exerting his power and privilege.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And [00:20:00] that’s intersectionality navigating multiple dynamics. All at once.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah, great example. Thank you.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: So one of the terms that you have that I wanted to get to Sorry to change subject. Yeah is anesthesia What is anesthesia? I have a guess, but please tell me.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Oh, you, you know all about it. So here’s the story.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: This is when I asked college men, when was the last time you were really took the mask off, really authentic, really vulnerable? When was the last time you really opened up to someone? And they’ll often tell a version of this story. I remember about two or three months ago. It was a long time. We were all out drinking about two 30 in the morning.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: We all came back, everybody else left, it was just me and my best friend. We went up to his room, we sat next to each other on the beanbag chairs, and we were [00:21:00] blowing up stuff on the screen playing a violent video game. And that’s when I told him my parents are getting a divorce, and I don’t know how to feel about that.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Or that’s when I told him our family dog died, and going home for Thanksgiving will be the first time I’ll have been in that house without that dog. Now, manesthesia is, think about all the anesthesia it takes to tell your best friend, not some stranger, not some random, but your best friend, One, it’s late at night, so we’re tired, so our inhibitions are down.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Two, we’ve been drinking, which lowers our inhibitions and also gives me an excuse, because if you make fun of me tomorrow, I can be like, whatever, dude, I was so wasted. I don’t really remember

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: that.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: We’re sitting side by side so we can avoid contact, eye contact, which can feel too intimate or can feel aggressive to men.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: We’re blowing things up on a video screen, proving our manhood. And that’s the kind of anesthesia it takes for a man to tell his best friend [00:22:00] what he’s really thinking, what he’s really feeling, what he’s really struggling with. If it takes all that anesthesia to talk to your best friend, imagine what it takes to talk to your coach or your advisor or your therapist or your mom.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah, the, if I can jump in there, the other thing I’ve been hearing from college students over the past, I don’t know, five years is Big uptick in marijuana usage and cocaine usage in that same example. And, but it, it does give us an excuse. And I think to me, one of the biggest problems that I have with man box culture is the rule of be stoic.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Don’t feel right. Because. We have no clue how we actually feel. We’re not encouraged to go in that direction. We’re not encouraged to turn inward. We’re not encouraged to learn how to be better in relationship. And then when we get in a romantic relationship at some point in our lives, assuming heterosexuality, or it could be [00:23:00] homosexual, the biggest complaint I hear from women.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And women are initiating 75 percent of the divorces in the U. S. right now is I can’t connect with my man. No shit. He can’t connect with

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: himself either.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah, not our fault. We didn’t ask to be socialized like this. But it’s our responsibility to learn to turn inwards and begin to be curious about these things.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: It’s a great point about how the way that men are socialized affects relationships affects people who are not men. And the same thing affects us who are men. We are well being right higher rates of many mental health issues, higher rates of suicide, all of these costs of well being that we know about.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: But it also sacrifices our authenticity and our humanity. So When I’m watching the end of Friday Night Lights, the TV show, and I get teary and my partner pauses it and said, Are you okay? And I pretend I’m not crying. I’m sacrificing my authenticity. [00:24:00] I’m pretending I’m something I’m not. I’m sacrificing my humanity by hiding from her and me.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: My real genuine authentic emotions and I get self righteous and indignant and what are you doing? You’re ruining the show and I blink a lot because I think that’s going to help. And if you were honest

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: about those tears, it would bring the two of you closer together.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: It would. And I know she’s not going to make fun of me.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: There will be no negative consequences. To your point, there are enormous positive affirmations I would receive. And what’s hilarious is she knows that I tell this story all the time and I still do it.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And when my car breaks down and I know nothing about cars, but I open up the hood and look around and right.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I’m pretending to be something I’m not. And I think one of the things that, that really we need to get past is this notion of men versus women, which is a very binary way to think about it. If women are going to gain men have to give [00:25:00] up,

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: but if, if I can jump in there, I think that men versus women paradigm is tremendously supported by man box rule of be competitive.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: It is. And if we all just saw

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: the roots of what are facing women, sexism, and the trouble facing men, it’s the same thing. It’s patriarchy, it’s gender roles, it’s all these things. And I think that shifts when we start talking about women gaining and men losing. What are men willing to give up so the women can gain?

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: It’s the zero sum game. And instead say, listen, patriarchy, gender norms, they’re ruining all of our lives. It becomes this group project we’re all working together to help. Women and trans people break free from oppression and wouldn’t it be great if men could break free from mental health issues and suicide and despite all the concrete real privileges we have in our life we die younger, like we lose our authenticity or humanity or our relationships and connections which you’re pointing to but then also just Our societal well being.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And so [00:26:00] I love this notion of group project, collective liberation. How do we all get together to dismantle some of this for all of our freedom?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. And along those lines, I’m really careful how I phrase these ideas on air. For instance, I never use the phrase toxic masculinity because. Even when I hear that I shut down, I’m like, Ooh, what did I do wrong?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: What did I do bad? Am I bad? And, so there’s certain phrases I stay well away from, but even I’ve used the phrase traditional masculinity, and that’s triggered some people like what’s traditional masculinity? Who gets to decide that? I’m like society decided that yeah, hundreds of years ago.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And we’re just reaping the. lack of benefits from it now. But yeah, so I’ve thought a lot about how to communicate these ideas to men so that they can hear it without getting defensive and ideally have opportunity to take the ideas in and consider them with curiosity.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And without self judgment.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Yeah. And I think when I was, I’m a nerdy PhD scholar [00:27:00] who’s written, peer reviewed academic articles that seven people read, but I wrote this book for my kid’s kindergarten teacher. Because every year, she doesn’t know it, but every year she gets 15 boys in her classroom who are five years old and she sees what they’ve learned coming in and she wants them to be great and she loves them in her own very appropriate way.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: She wants to send them into the world, and I wanted this to be helpful to her. Boys to therapists, to coaches, and, scholars use the term traditional hegemonic masculinity. That’s the sort of scholarly term.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: But no one understands hegemonic, so I just cut that out.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: So traditional means it’s similar to what it was 40 years ago.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Hegemonic means that it’s structural, right? Men are placed above others,

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: right?

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Related to power

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: hierarchy.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And my editor very well said, you gotta, you can’t use that word. What are you talking about? Explain what you’re talking about. And then, bloggers and educators and activists talk about toxic masculinity.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: [00:28:00] And that gets labeled as, men are toxic. Nobody who talks about toxic masculinity seriously thinks men are toxic. We’re talking about the expectations on men are toxic. And, that toxicity is what we’re talking about.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And one of the things, if I can jump in there that helped me to delineate this idea in my own mind is to separate gender from sex, right?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And I’m sure you’re aware of this, sex is male to female, anything in between on a spectrum yeah, thank you. Gender is masculine to feminine, anywhere in between, and you can have, sorry. social gender, social,

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: yep, sex, biological, and you got the continuum.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yep. Great distinction. Thank you.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And then, so you can have a more masculine female or a more feminine male or anywhere in between. And when you talk about toxic masculinity, it doesn’t mean necessarily that we’re just talking about men. It’s about the concept of masculinity. And how toxic that is if you subscribe to all the rules In that man box to the extent that you subscribe to all those and there’s some good and bad in there [00:29:00] that’s another discussion.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Yeah, and I think even if we don’t subscribe to it, we still find ourselves falling into it So there’s a one of my participants is a black man working on his job, very involved on campus and addressing issues of racism, very involved in addressing sexual violence, very committed. And one day at his job he just doesn’t feel seen feels like no one will look him in the eye, and he attributes this to racism, and he’s just furious and he’s fuming and he storms out of his campus job and he’s standing at the bus stop waiting and he’s just feeling emasculated and furious and he’s fuming.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And. Emasculated by racism, and what does he do in that moment? He hollers at the woman walking by. Comments about her body, comments about sexually harassing her is what he does. He gets on the bus and he says, What am I doing? So I was feeling emasculated by racism. So I walked out and did something contradictory to my values and did something that reinforces a racist [00:30:00] stereotype about black men at the same time.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And so to me, it’s a great example about that was so far from who he is. But some of that plays out. And I think this leads to something you’ve been pointing to which my research talked about mass consciousness. Once you know that there’s a mask and know that you wear it, and then you start noticing when, and you notice when you do it on purpose and you notice when you do it unconsciously, then you can, then you have mass consciousness

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: and

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: then you start to notice in others, I don’t think I’ve ever seen my uncle without his mask.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Like that’s so messed up. And, oh, I just. I see you, but then I see, I don’t know what that was. That was your mask. They started seeing it in everyone all around them. And sometimes masking is beneficial. I don’t think in a job interview, you want to share about how difficult your divorce is and break down sobbing, right?

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: But So maybe there’s a mask to wear, but there’s a difference between masking through conscious choice in this situation, I’m going to make this choice and I’m going to do this because [00:31:00] it will serve me or serve the situation, and then just masking without knowing and having all sorts of consequences along the way.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I think that’s one of those consequences in

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: your example is displacement of anger. Anger from what you think is racism, which may or may not be, and to cat calling a woman out of based out of anger. And it makes me wonder like cat calling is one of those phenomenon that I’ve always scratched my head over.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I like, I really don’t see how some, how a man thinks that’s going to work for them. Like I’ve never seen a woman come back and say, Oh my God, I love being cat called by you and sexually harassed. Here’s my number. Call me. So I, it makes me wonder if that’s all anger based, just anger at women in general.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I see it a little different. One of the things I notice is that I’ve never in my life seen a man who’s alone catcall.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Makes sense.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: It is often an interaction, not between him and her, but an interaction between him and him.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And it’s a proof of heterosexuality, which is there in by extension, a proof of manhood.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: So let me make this comment directed at her, which can be [00:32:00] damaging and harmful and then turn to my friends and be like, Hey, did you see that? Wasn’t that hilarious? So I think a lot of it is brewing masculinity. I want to talk a little bit, if it’s okay about this, because you brought up toxic masculinity, healthy masculinity, and then authentic masculinity.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. I want to talk about the process of becoming in your three stages of masculinity. So please.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: So toxic masculinity, traditional hegemonic masculinity, man box, that’s what we all know and we’re familiar with. And then there are some folks who want to talk about healthy masculinity, which I think makes sense, has a really good place.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And that’s saying, let’s redefine what it means to be a man as being honest and truthful and respected and respectful, and all of these sort of positive characteristics. And I think there’s a really good place for that to move away from toxic masculinity to healthy masculinity. My worry is that is a, maybe a better mask, but it’s still a mask.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: It’s still an externally imposed version of what it means to be a healthy man that I now need to fall into. [00:33:00] And if, and who’s going to decide that, right? I worry about white, upper middle class, educated men deciding what healthy masculinity and then applying it to men who don’t quite fit that. I want to say let’s keep that continuum moving and toward authentic masculinity.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And authentic masculinity is. What is authentic about being a man for Keith, for me, at this point in my life, and some of that, man box, feels pretty real to me I mentioned, eat meat, I eat a lot of meat, I love it, I look forward to it, like I’m excited about it, that feel, that’s in the man box.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And it also feels authentic to me, but drink beers in that man box. For sure. I grew up in rural Wisconsin. I got that message my whole life and I just don’t like it. And when it’s authentic, when you’re breaking the rules. And so for me, my challenge is not what’s healthy masculinity and how I perform or wear that mask, but what’s authentic for me and how is that different than [00:34:00] what was maybe authentic for me 20 years ago and being here and your authentic masculinity is going to be really different than mine.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And I love the idea that there’s not just one authentic masculinity. There’s. Potentially millions or billions. Yeah. Individualized. And can we talk a little bit about what is in the man box that you find authentic? Because one of the things I find authentic in the man box is be self reliant.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: But you have to quantify that or qualify that. Yeah, there’s a dark side. If you think of self reliance on a one to 10 scale, I don’t want to be completely dependent on others or another, nor do I want to be at a 10 on that scale where I can’t ask for help if I need help. So I want to be like at a six or seven more or less.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And so I think to break down some of those rules in the man box on a one to 10 scale and look at. How much of this do I want be the provider like I think that’s a fine value, but I’ve seen Too many men get way too lost In being the provider and the vast majority of their [00:35:00] time and energy and attention Go to work and then the very people that they set out to provide for become resentful and bitter and pissed off

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Or they feel emasculated when their partner makes more than them when that could be great I think you know, I meet I, I really strive to be respectful and respected.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I think some of these things and healthy masculinity. I think it’s always a challenge though, about. the ways that is authentic for us that fits that traditional expectation that we’ve been learning our whole life. How do you know? So one of my participants, we’re talking about this secret in the man box and using some different terms.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I just talk about his external expectations. And he said, so I’m just thinking about this and I love football. I played high school football. I love college football. I love professional football. I love famous football. I love football. And I was like, And he said, but how do [00:36:00] I know if I love football or have I just been taught my whole life I’m supposed to like football?

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And I was like, yes, exactly. Like how do you know? Like you think you love football, but is that authentic and genuine coming from you or is that just so well socialized that you think you’re like, how do you know? And he was like, Yeah, I don’t know if I like football. I don’t know if I like girls and he was kidding but not and I love the notion that once football is up for grabs for men, like everything is up for grabs.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: But I think about that often when I think. I like meat. That’s part, do I really, or have I just been so well socialized my whole life? And I don’t know how you would ever know

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: what it’s a little bit of a mindfuck and using the word fuck. I just established my masculinity, cursing,

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: swearing, but,

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And that’s part of the man box that I do let’s talk a little bit about competitiveness because that one fascinates me as well. Like I was a competitive son of a bitch growing up because that was how it was socialized. I think my parents really encouraged that we were high [00:37:00] achievers. We competed at high levels in athletics. And I’ve realized as I’ve gotten older, that competitiveness doesn’t really serve us in a lot of areas of life, particularly in our romantic relationship in an argument.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: It’s not about losing. It’s about losing. Yeah, fair enough,

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: right? How many times do you find yourself feeling competitive with your closest friends who are met over fitness over wait, there’s something else, right? Yeah. And I think that shows up about that shows up a lot.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And so where I’m competitive too, Where does competitiveness push us to our best selves, right? Whether it’s running the race or doing the learning, and where does it undermine our best selves? So I think a lot of these things that are there on their face can be neutral, they can be also positive, and they can also have a dark side and be really destructive.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And that’s what I found with most

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: of these rules is they [00:38:00] can have a, they’re good up to a point, but you got to look at what’s that point. And, competitiveness, I see it undermining where it undermines connectivity with other human beings. And I think it’s a really interesting. Process to look at how competitive am I?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Cause a lot of men that I work with are like an 11 on a 10 point scale. They were doing athletes or pro athletes, but then they get in a knockdown drag out argument with their spouse or girlfriend and it’s did you realize that you’re bringing that same competitiveness into your relationship and it’s destroying your relationship?

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I remember someone asked me, how have you learned to communicate around difficult subjects? And I had a good answer and they was like, I don’t believe it. And I was like, okay. And I realized that how I learned to communicate around difficult subjects was watching a Republican and a Democrat argue with each other on TV.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And they just, they belittle each other. They’re indignant. They’re self righteous. They don’t really engage [00:39:00] on the arguments. They do that. I’m so good at that. I don’t value it. I don’t like it. It doesn’t, it’s not how I want to be. But if we get into a disagreement, I fall right into that dynamic because I watched so much of it when I was learning how to deal with disagreements and I fall into that.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Do you want to be right? Or do you want to be effective? Do you want to win this argument? Or do you want to? Connect in the relationship. Do you want to, do you want to be right in the relationship or do you want to learn something so that you can both be better in the relationship going forward?

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Yeah, do you want to

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: compete or do you want to collaborate?

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I didn’t really have a lot of examples of that, that other one. You mentioned becoming, can I just say a little bit about that? Yes, please. Yeah, so becoming is this process later in life. I think it very mathematically is becoming as a function of identity times integrity.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And so identity means who am I and who do I aspire to be? [00:40:00] And I break that up into and this is great for those coaches and therapists, self awareness, breaking self awareness into self discovery and self creation. Self discovery being going backward into the past and self creation being going forward We can come back to that if you want to.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And then integrity being, this is who I am and who I aspire to be. I don’t always do that, right? I aspire to be honest. I just lied three times this week. Okay does that mean I need to lie less? Or do I need to change my self concept? Maybe I’m not as honest as I wanted to, or I feel like I’ve been told my whole life I’m not a very good listener, so I’ve just accepted I’m not a very good listener.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: But lately I’ve been hearing that people really do feel listened to by me, so maybe I need to, maybe I need to change my self concept. I would have thought that identity would come first, like we would get me figured out. And then I would try and do that. And what the research taught me is that those, that [00:41:00] identity.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: and integrity are in conversation. I think of it as a, an infinity, right?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Where who I am informs what I do, and then that informs then who I am, and then that informs how I rethink how I do it. And they’re just always flowing back and forth. And so that’s the process of becoming.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Identity times integrity. And then those processes are self awareness and then self management.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. I love who am

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I, and then how am I doing it being that guy?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. I love that explanation. And I, to me, I think of an upward spiral where you’ve got the same marks on either side of the spiral. So you keep hitting integrity and then and, just, and, but it’s an upward spiral, so you’re always progressing or evolving.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. And integrity, I think of as acting in accordance with your values. So to be aware of your top three, four or five values is critical. And then you can have values that you embody. Right now in the present moment, and you can also have values that are [00:42:00] aspirational, right? So like courage, I want to become more courageous or authentic.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I want to become more authentic or more honest, right? And so I think I divide values up in those two camps and present and future. Yeah Go ahead.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Why this is our coaching coming out because every if you say, you know Do you have core values everyone in the world says yes If you say what are they like that’s fine.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: But unless you can rattle them off from memory, you can’t use them to make day to day decisions. You can’t use them to make big decisions, right? If you know it’s family, hope, love, and commitment, then when the going gets tough, you go, all right, which one of these, how do they guide? But if you just go, yeah, of course I have core values.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I’m not an immoral person. Of course I have core values. Then they can’t guide your life. It’s funny.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I have some clients that I’ll give a values exercise to incredibly resistant to doing the exercise. And I’m like, yeah, if you [00:43:00] put those values down, you might have to really look at them and look at your behavior compared to them.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And that’s scary as hell.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And then there’s accountability. And accountability is such a key part of this, right? And you can’t, don’t get it if you don’t say, this is, these are my values, or this is my life purpose. Another thing that, we all have a life purpose, but if you can’t say it from memory, you can’t use it to make day to day decisions.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And that accountability was such a key part of this becoming because I say I’m this, but I don’t always do that. And sometimes I recognize it. I can hold myself accountable, but then sometimes other people recognize it and say, Hey, you always say this. But I don’t see that really playing out for you.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And then we get defensive. Who do you think you are? Or we can welcome that. We can welcome that and say, thank you for pointing that out. I’m growing. I’m learning. If we have that growth mindset, then accountability is a gift, or if we have that fixed mindset, then it’s a threat to be defensive against and fight back and resist.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I think it’s fascinating to [00:44:00] me because I’m a big fan of like positive psychology and learning to become happier. And. I guess I’ve been amazed at how integral a part of having a happier, thriving life. Integrity actually is because I see so many people, I talk with so many people that act out of integrity and it creates such emotional turmoil and pain and suffering.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: If someone were to have an affair okay, that’s 15 minutes of pleasure, assuming they get it right. Sounds fun. And it’s exciting. And I feel desired in exchange for. years or perhaps a lifetime of guilt and shame and suffering.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I love Paul Ben Shahar’s definition of happiness, which is the combination of pleasure and meaning.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. Pleasure

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: being the short term sensory. It’s good. Feels good. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, incredible art. Amazing. That’s part of it. And then meeting is the long term relationships, purpose, and [00:45:00] work. I’ve made a difference in my life, and having those together is really great. And you can do one or the other, and it leads you astray.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Unfortunately, we have to wrap up here in a few minutes. Let me ask you one more thing. Yeah. To what extent does serving others factor into your happiness? I’m trying to look for a better value or a better meaning. In life than that. And I have not found it.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: I love that you’re bringing this up because I have more than a thousand hours coaching people.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And like you were mentioning, you get this behind the scenes view, right? You think it’s just me. And then every client you have is like when they really tell you the truth. Every client I have wants more friends. Every single one. And so I feel like I have this behind the scenes view. What I, another behind the scenes thing that I have learned is that if your values and your life purpose don’t include serving others, [00:46:00] They’re meaningless.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: That doesn’t mean you can’t focus on yourself. But if the focus on self is because I want to be a millionaire, it’s interesting, but it’s cheap. If you want to earn a million dollars so you can dedicate your life to, or if you want to earn 5 million so you can give it away to charity, now it has meaning and it has purpose.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: But when you really get down to it without the serving others, there’s no drive. It’s just, and it’s just about self and when it’s just about me, my achievements, my accomplishments, then when things get really hard, you just go, I don’t know, maybe it’s not worth it. I give up. But when it’s to have increased the force in the world, then it’s, there’s a means to an end.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Otherwise your day to day, your business this year, whatever you’re doing [00:47:00] is just a means. So what’s the end? And if you have a really clear end of providing for your family, economic growth, sustainability, helping kids who have heart, who need heart surgery, whatever it is, then that’s what sustains us when the going gets tough.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. And I think there’s a strong overlap there with spirituality and religion too. But I think it’s so integral. I just, I keep asking people and getting the same answer. So I’m, yeah, I think we’re onto something there.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Yeah. And I, I’m not religious, but I do really feel spiritual. And I think the service to others and then connecting that to a spiritual component, whatever that means for you, maybe just how we’re all interconnected.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: We all breathe the same air. We all share the same God, whatever, maybe we’re all

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: the interconnectedness of all things I love. Yeah.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Lots of different ways to think about that. And what’s the little thing you want to do in your life to make a difference

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: for others? Leave the world a better place.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: For the world, for people, [00:48:00] for however you want to think about that. Yeah that’s what sustains people when things get rocky.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And, you were asking at the beginning before we went on air, why do you do the podcast kind of thing? And my answer is just to serve others. Yeah. Like it’s really simple.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: It’s just to share information in hopes that they can make a better life with the information on this show.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And you do men’s groups and retreats to serve others and make other things possible and do things like that. And same thing. I find great meaning in my coaching and my consulting and the speaking, but it’s not about me being famous, right?

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: It’s about making a difference about preventing a little bit of sexual violence that’s happening in the world to reducing that to making a difference in this client’s life so they can be more of purpose. So they can be better in their family so they can be more integrity. I love that

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Keith, thank you so much.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: This was a fascinating powerful conversation I really appreciate you coming on board Tell people where they can get a hold of you if they want to yeah

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: Keithedwards. com is the best place to get a hold of [00:49:00] me. You can find the book there You can find me on all the social media channels. You can find my email what I’d love when you’re there is to check out the book for sure, which you can find anywhere you get books, but I have a newsletter called sharing fire.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: You can sign up there. It’s a hundred percent free, no pitches, no sales, no nothing. The first Saturday of every month I share with folks three or four things that I’m learning three or four things that I’m doing and three or four things that I’m inspired by. So that often means a Ted talk, a blog post, a great article, some of the things I’ve been doing.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work: And then. TV and movie recommendations, a beautiful poem, an inspiring thing. So that’s just a great way for folks who want to connect to stay connected without any cost or ickiness or any of that. So that’s

Dr. John Schinnerer, Therapist for Men: wonderful. And so Keith, one of the things I’ve been working on is telling my male friends that I love them.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Therapist for Men: So just wanted to share. I love you. I really appreciate the work you’re doing. If everyone were doing this work. The world would be a much better place. So thank you.

Keith Edwards, Men’s Work Expert: Thank you, John. I love you. I love you back and I love what you’re doing and how you’re [00:50:00] sharing it and keep doing all the great things.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Thank you, sir. And that is it for this episode of the Evolved Caveman Podcast. If you liked this episode, please remember to like, rate, review, and share. If you didn’t like it, you don’t have to do a damn thing. Thanks so much. I’ll see you on the next one. Bye bye.