Learn how to corral your monkey mind w/ experts Chris Cirak & Dr. John Schinnerer
How To Tame Your Monkey Mind Before It Ruins Your Life
You ever feel like your brain is a chaotic circus of overthinking, self-doubt, and anxiety-ridden monkeys swinging from thought to thought, never shutting the hell up? Yeah, welcome to being human.
There’s a reason they say “happiness is an inside job”—because no amount of money, status, or external wins are gonna fix your mind if it’s running on autopilot, obsessing over the past, dreading the future, and completely missing the present moment.
Jon Kabat-Zinn skewered it when he said, “Wherever you go, there you are.” In other words, you can’t outrun your own mind. So what do you do? You train it just like you would a misbehaving puppy.
That’s where meditation and mindfulness come in—not as some woo-woo nonsense, but as literal mind-reprogramming tools that help you stop reacting like a mindless, stress-fueled zombie and start actually running your own damn life.
This week on The Evolved Caveman Podcast, I sit down with Chris Cirak, a guy who had it all—success, money, the so-called “good life”—and still felt burnt out, empty, and lost as hell. Instead of doubling down on society’s bullshit formula for happiness, he decided to rewrite the rules, diving deep into meditation and mindfulness to hack his own mind and reclaim his sanity.
What Gems Lie Waiting To Be Unearthed In This Episode?
🧠 Why 95% of people *think* they’re self-aware… but only 12% actually are (Yikes.)
🧠 How meditation can help you tame your monkey mind—no coconuts required
🧠 How mindfulness gives you the keys to your own damn brain so you stop running on autopilot
🧠 Why the endless chase for external success is a losing game (and what to do instead)
🧠 How to stop being a slave to your emotions, thoughts, and mental habits
Meet Chris Cirak—The Man Who Made Mindfulness Mainstream
Chris has been meditating since 2015—not as some spiritual flex, but because the life society promised would make him happy… didn’t. He tried the traditional success route, only to realize he was chasing an empty prize. So, he went deep into the world of mindfulness, meditation, and self-awareness, learning from heavyweights like Eckhart Tolle, Deepak Chopra, Dr. Brian Weiss, and more. Now, he teaches others how to break free from mental conditioning and actually *be present* for their lives.
So, if you’re tired of feeling like your thoughts run the show in your own head, hit play now and start reclaiming control.
🚀 Listen In & Master Your Circus Of Monkeys 🚀
To listen to this brave, new episode on Podomatic (where all of our circus monkeys reside!), click here.
To watch the video, just hit the play button below.
If you’re one of those weird and wonderful holdout people who still enjoy reading, the transcript is below for your ongoing edification…
How To Manage Your Monkey Mind (With Mindfulness) Before It Manhandles Your Life – Transcript
Dr. John Schinnerer: Thanks. Hey everybody, this is Dr. John back with the Evolved Caveman podcast, and today I am excited to have with me the guy with the coolest last name in all of mental health and well being, Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert. And Chris has been practicing meditation since 2015. He came to it because all the things society says lead to happiness, didn’t for him.
Chasing outcome after outcome left him feeling empty and burnt out and he sought a better way to live life. So after exploring many forms of meditation, he settled on what he found to be the most effective method of getting to the root of our mind’s conditioned reactivity. His book, Be You:, the journey of self realization lays the foundation for his courses in teaching.
And he has studied with and learned from many of the luminaries of our time, including Eckhart Tolle, Deepak Chopra, Dr. Brian Weiss, Joseph Campbell. [00:01:00] Marianne Williamson’s A Course in Miracles and many others. Chris, how are you? Welcome. Dr.
Chris Cirak: John, I’m fantastic. Thank you for having me here.
Dr. John: That is A Course in Miracles is Marianne Williamson, right?
Chris: It’s a series of writings that were channeled back in the seventies by some university graduate students. And, but she’s taken it under her wing and really made a foundation of a lot of what she talks about. Yeah.
Dr. John: I did not know that. Yeah. So Tell me your story and how you began working in mindfulness and meditation.
Chris: The story I guess is my life brought me here like it does for everyone. And like you just said in the intro, I essentially, I was on paper doing everything right. I had a great work life balance and really passionate about my career, passionate about other things like sports. What was your career?
It was in user experience design, so I was Okay. Yeah. UX is the thing
Dr. John Schinnerert: okay. I would call it gui. Is that, does that apply the GUI graphic user interface?
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: So that, that applies to, [00:02:00] creating an interface for more complex systems that are, is more visual in nature. . Gui. And it’s in the same realm.
So you’re on the right track. Yeah. But yeah, designing, everything from ticketing experiences to car dashboards, to remote controls, to apps left and right. Everything we use in our daily life now and to stay in touch, social media platforms, all of that good stuff. And that really exposed me to all kinds of industries and the psychology of the consumer and end user unmet needs and all that.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Very passionate about that area. And I was, it never gets old. It’s always evolving. A lot of technology and like I said, psychology and design. And I taught at UCLA for 10 years. And it was just really, in a good spot. It was a long term relationship. Everything was, it was just perfect, you would say.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And And I think that’s when really, you could call it midlife crisis or something hits. And what is that? Ultimately, it was just [00:03:00] the continued nurturing of the external meaning outcomes and accomplishments and just being focused on the next thing and the next thing. It’s slow, slowly started to, where on you is maybe not the right word, but something starts creeping up the sense that there must be more to life than this.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And I think the big difference is it hits everyone. I see that my friends, sooner or later, I right now in my practice, I see it in a lot of early 30s. So it’s happening sooner and sooner. It’s more like a one third life crisis or even quarter life crisis, right? But I think the difference with me was I listened.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: I took the time to step away from things and really see what’s going on. And that’s really when I started to unfold and things shifted for me in a big way, as opposed to which I see a lot of people do. And you can’t blame them, but they numb out and go back to work the next day and just push it away.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: But. It’ll rear its head sooner or later again. So the sooner we start listening, the better. [00:04:00]
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah. I think all of us are looking for meaning and happiness and I’m seeing it earlier and earlier in the generations these days. Like I, the younger generations want meaningful work, for example.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And I think you’re right that we all get to that point in life where we’re like, what’s the point of the hamster wheel? Exactly. Cause that’s what it feels like.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Yeah, it is a hamster wheel. If we’re not doing things in an engaged, conscious way, if we’re always living for the next accomplishment, next goal, next outcome, next deadline, which is, a lot of the working life is structured that way then we won’t find the connection to Our true essence, which is our awareness of things, doesn’t mean we have to quit our job, move to a remote island, it just becomes, means becoming more aware, mindfulness is just doing things more mindfully, more with more consciousness, with more awareness.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And in that awareness, it pulls you [00:05:00] into, the present moment. Your awareness is the container of your thoughts and your feelings, so you’re no longer attached and identified with your thoughts and feelings so much, which is what leads to a rollercoaster experience of life, but rather you’re more of a calm presence.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And in that calm presence of everything happening, you start to see more perspectives. Opportunities you would otherwise not see if you’re just focused on how you expect things to happen. And you start to feel yourself as part of a greater current, the greater unfolding of life. And really that’s where magic starts to happen and things you can’t Predict or expect, which is the whole point for expecting or predicting something that we’re it’s a boring kind of stale experience because we just want things to happen that we want things want to happen, which ultimately is a Being in a state of resistance because [00:06:00] things always happen differently.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Coming out of that resistance, I think, is key to really seeing things from many different perspectives, holding everything as true, and then you come out of friction, a lot of friction, and weight comes off your shoulders.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Do me a favor, explain the concept of presence and maybe that’s an obvious question, but we’re hearing that a lot more in leadership development these days, and just go a little bit into that if you would.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Yeah, it’s really a, it is what it’s what it means right is being more present but How do we become more present? I think is the key. Yeah. And that’s what our senses are for. We have five senses six, if you count our awareness of our body in space and if you go deeper into meditation, there’s, we have up to, I think, 21 senses, but ultimately the main one seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, feeling if we, okay.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Spelling, and if we stay connected to the senses are responding to what’s happening right now. There’s nothing else our senses can respond [00:07:00] to. And so using that as the connective tissue to the present moment, meaning really tuning into what some people are more visual, more auditory, more, tactile, whatever it may be, but.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: In every situation that we find ourselves, and these are usually every day simple situations, such as folding your laundry focus on the color, the texture of the fabrics. If you’re pouring yourself a cup of coffee, the smell and the temperature and the touch and all of this is, it pulls us out of this past future.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Mindset where our monkey mind lives and into right now where life is very simple and even the most difficult tasks that seem overwhelming when we think about the whole lot of it when you narrow down to the task at hand, everything becomes easy and simple and light and fun.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah, I think of the leader who’s, got too many things on his or her plate, and too many things on [00:08:00] his or her to do list.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And so just. Practicing being present with people that you’re working with people that are reporting to you if you’re the top dog and just responding to what they’re saying in the moment rather than thinking either a year ahead or a week ahead or a day ahead or three seconds ahead. And that to me that took a little bit of practice right to be truly present and not be three seconds ahead thinking, Okay, what am I going to say next so I don’t sound stupid.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Yeah. And that is key and it does take some practice, but to be able to listen with the highest quality of attention that already. It’s not just on your side, you’re not just no longer filtering what they’re saying through a whole myriad of other thoughts, but you’re actually just holding space for the person to express themselves.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: So there’s a much clear organic connection that’s happening there. The other person feels heard and seen in a much deeper way because you can tell when the other person’s mind is like drifting or judging [00:09:00] you or whatever it may be. So especially in leadership positions, the ability to stay connected to the other person and hold space for them.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: It works wonders. So much of our communication is beyond words. It’s our, our energy, our facial expression. I think it’s like 80, 90 percent of communication. I’ve heard anywhere from 70,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: 70 on up. Yeah. And, then tone of voice, volume and stuff. Yeah. Body. And to what extent do you think anxiety, I, that’s the best word I can put on it is those feelings of anxiety or discomfort get in the way of being present when we’re truly listening to, and let me bring it to like romantic partners, right?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Like I tell men, if you’re. spouse or partner is venting to you about what happened at work. Let’s say they had a bad day at work. You pause them and say, I really want to support you. How can I best support you? Do you want me to just listen? Do you want me to try and fix it? Or do you need a hug?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And Typically what the other person will [00:10:00] say is I just need you to listen, but then we start listening and it’s because of our empathy. It’s hard for me to listen to you because I care about you. And so my I’m picking up on your anger, your distress, your anxiety, all that stuff. And then we go back to trying to fix it.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Yeah, the transference is definitely a thing. And so the, again, coming back to sensations is as you’re listening, as you’re holding space for the other person, you’re going to feel triggered and triggered in all these little ways. And you’re going to experience those triggers as sensations in your body somewhere.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: They’re going to show up in your stomach or maybe knots or back of your neck or just a pounding headache or whatever is happening, chest, your heart’s beating. And all of this is, your own stuff. So what’s being said is pointing to things within us that for one reason or another is is resonating with this and what’s being said.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And and so staying focused on those sensations, [00:11:00] not reacting to the feeling because that’s what we’re reacting to when we react to anything, it’s. how it makes us feel. It’s not the person, place, or thing around us that we tend to blame and try to control, but rather the feeling that person, place, or thing evokes in us, we’re then reacting to the feeling.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: So if we can observe the feeling, stay aware of the feeling, the sensation in our body, that breaks the reactive loop and we can stay calm and present with the other person. Does take a little practice, but it totally works.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And when it pays off. So that’s a great segue. You brought up reactivity. And so talk a little bit about reacting versus responding.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Cause I think that’s a critical concept.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Yeah. And that was super critical in my life too. Once I understood that there’s the onset of a feeling and then where my reaction to the feeling begins is that’s the critical moment there because feelings arise and pass. Thoughts come and go.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: That’s just the nature of life. It’s always moving and evolving. It’s in motion. And I, it took me a long time to [00:12:00] understand that my experience of a situation was probably 90 95 percent my reaction to the feeling about the situation and not the entire experience in and of itself. So once I started working on the reactivity part, I recognized and realized the feeling itself is, they’re all very manageable, very small.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Ultimately they come and go and this too shall pass. We’ve all heard that one. So if we can stay out of reactivity, meaning staying connected to our sensations, observing them in an unbiased way, no longer pushing away unpleasant sensations and no longer clinging to the pleasant ones. https: otter.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: ai You know, that’s the same side. Other side of the coin. Then we’re actually free flowing, really feeling are what we’re feeling our feelings fully is what I say. And that’s our natural state. And so it’s really just finding back to our natural state. Then we don’t create these hiccups of reactivity in our as we’re engaging with people, [00:13:00] places and things around us because that those moments of reactivity of constant resistance, they take us out of clarity, no decision made in reactivity is a good decision.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: It’s always clouded. It’s always one dimensional. It’s always divisive, but rather, seeing things with the feeling what we need to feel. It’ll leave behind some insight into the situation and how you should take action. That’s the next important piece is not just coming out of reactivity, but to then take action from it.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: From a multi perspective clear headed place. And that’s how we can move through situations and create this positive momentum forward.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: A great explanation. So do me a favor because it’s helpful to me to put this, these kind of vague and nebulous ideas into concrete examples. So can you give me concrete examples of you or someone else when you’re reacting versus responding?
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Yeah, so the most basic example I can give is which [00:14:00] I do every morning and I mentioned this in our off session talk is when I don’t drink coffee but I pour myself a glass of water every morning and I go to the refrigerator dispenser and I put my glass there and the key is to observe, again, the sensations to hear the water see the color of the swirls the bubbles I’m observing the pace I’m noticing in that act how busy my mind is today.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And the key is to be okay with whatever is. So seeing things as they are. So if I notice my mind is all over the place, is to accept that and be okay with that. And that’s what calms it down. The reaction would be is to notice, Oh my gosh, my mind is all over the place. I don’t want it to be that way. I, it should be calmer.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Why am I this whole mental. Stream of comments starts to kick in, but rather to see things as they are. And that’s a very small example. But it’s how we start building that [00:15:00] awareness muscle so that we can hold space, be the container of our thoughts and be the container of our feelings.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Can we, can you bring it into a relational example? And one of the things that crosses my mind is what were you like 10 or 15 years ago versus in the present? And what are some of the differences that you’ve seen either internally, but also relationally?
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Relation as in relationships?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah, as in like your significant romantic relationship.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: I used to be Mr. Overthinker in my head. I would wake up and when I first started working with energy healers and sound people and all that, they would always say my energy is so much in my head. It took a lot of work to redistribute that and not be so mental.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And I had started noticing just naturally over time, I would have, debates and conversations, and I would love to just analyze things to death. And, but it always left me feeling depleted and empty and just [00:16:00] like a shell. And it was like, I didn’t understand why that would be. I just had this great conversation with another great thinker and yet or just even friends hanging out, but just all this talk, all this thinking just led to nothing.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And and so the that’s that was the beginning of me realizing the there had to be a kind of a better way. Something wasn’t right. But then I, as you mentioned in the example before, especially as guys, to be able to listen and was so much more effective than trying to fix things or, which is our tendency to try to be pragmatic and come up with solutions.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And that just would escalate things. So you learn that way naturally as well. You don’t have to take a course in meditation to learn that. We all mature and I think especially in work, if you’re a leadership position and you’re mentoring others, being able to stay present and hold space for [00:17:00] what they’re looking to express.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: That showed itself to be very effective magically almost. When you first start just holding space for someone and it turns out really well, and you didn’t really say anything, you start wondering, wow, what’s going on here? But once you start to understand really the dynamic of Thoughts and feelings and energy needing to come out and express themselves and you just being a mirror for the other person ultimately to hear themselves to experience themselves so that they can release and regain balance.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: That’s really our primary social purpose. And if we reflect on ourselves, we need that too. That’s basically what good friends are for, is they’re good listeners.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah. Thank you for the explanation. One of the things we talked about, this was, our first conversation is that you offer a Vipassana light retreat.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And I thought your idea was fascinating. So tell me a little bit about that because I think you’re trying to take [00:18:00] meditation and make it. palatable or workable or manageable.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Yeah. So those are the 10 day silent retreats that we may have heard about. And you just sit in meditation all day long and it’s intense and it’s not for everyone, at least initially.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And so I, I’ve been doing these, like I said, since 2015 And whenever I wanted to bring people along, you also spend a lot of time in, silence. And so there were certain things that people were afraid of that they said, nah, it’s not for me. I can’t be quiet or sit still for that long and all that.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: When you actually do it, you realize those are not. really challenges, but there should be an opportunity to work your way up to that. And so that’s incorporated into my mindfulness retreats where we have, mornings are spent in noble silence. And once you just do like a morning, you realize, Oh, that wasn’t that.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: That wasn’t easy, like starting small, right? And in fact, that’s the big takeaway when people leave the retreats. The one thing they all say is I can’t wait to [00:19:00] instigate a morning silence when I get back to my regular life. And cause there’s such beauty and stillness and such, such depth in our own being.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: It’s that it’s. Starting with a few sessions of meditation and then working your way up, it’s just like going to the gym. Bench press 250 right from the get go, you work your way up. So that’s how I design my retreats.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah, I just think it’s a great idea. And for those who don’t know, there’s a dose related effect of meditation or mindfulness on depending on how you define those two on our well being.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: So in other words, the more we do it, the more benefits we get. And they found that, doing it 20 minutes a day, five days a week, as a lot of the research studies have done works really well for us an amazing list of positive benefits from that. But then to go next level and to go to a retreat and spend 123 days practicing mindfulness, even more benefits in a 10 day, even more and so I [00:20:00] just think that’s interesting how we can take, states and make them traits.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Ooh, I like that. Yeah. And it’s what we spend our time on. The wonderful thing I find about meditation is that you literally have, the more you invest in it, the more comes back. It’s like a direct relationship between how much you invest yourself and how much you benefit.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah. And so tell me about one or two of the exercises that you do at retreats, because I’m curious, getting down to brass tacks.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Yeah, so the two forms of meditation I focus on are, I call them thought awareness and body awareness, which again relates to our thoughts and then our feelings and developing our awareness muscle around our thoughts and our feelings is key to no longer depending on the external world for how you feel, because that’s how our life turns into a rollercoaster when everything that happens around us has that power over us of making us sad, making [00:21:00] us happy and anxious or in both positive and negative ways we’re too attached to everything that happens.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And as a result, we then try to steer and control what happens to try and control and steer how we feel. But that’s a limited way of living.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah. And we’re also really bad at Emotional prognostication. So we don’t really know what will make us feel a certain way in the future, but we think we do.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah. And the other thing that I keep running up against in my mind as you’re talking is this idea of self awareness and the vast majority of us will self report. Oh, yes. I’m highly self aware. And it’s 95 percent of us, but the research shows that it’s only about 12 to 15 percent of people that are actually self aware, which means there’s this huge Delta or gap between those people that are aware of versus those that think they’re aware.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And that’s a huge problem. What are your thoughts on that?
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: It is tricky. Cause we only have ourselves to compare ourselves to, [00:22:00] right? There’s no other way. And so that is one of the challenges. But I think it also, that’s the quality that is. your confidence in yourself, your trust in yourself. These are things that have no comparison.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Your inner truth starts to emerge that doesn’t require validation of others. In fact, that wants others to have their inner truth. You, so you come out of the mental lens and the constant validation and comparing and analyzing and predicting. And that’s where all fear and expectations and all of that stuff lies.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And you come out of all of that, you just start to come more into your own and into your body. And the mind is a wonderful tool but it should be a tool and not controlling you. You use it when it’s appropriate, but we we become a very head heavy society and, and knowledge is king and above all else, but we really need to tune back into [00:23:00] our intuition, our ability to feel the information that comes through in our feelings. There’s there’s so many things that are beyond just thought, thought is stale. The moment you believe something, you take a mental snapshot of it and think it’s like that forever, but everything is evolving, changing.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: You talked about relationships, how to keep relationships fresh. It’s well notice the detail in the other person there’s, they’re constantly evolving. We see it when we see somebody we haven’t seen in a while or their kids or something, and then suddenly a year goes by or two years and we meet them again and they look different, like they literally look different on the day-to-day, we can stay connected to that life force, that aliveness in others.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: There’s ways to do that, but really connecting through our senses again, that, that keeps us in tune with the aliveness in us all.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah. And thank you for that. And one of the big issues that I see with a lot of men that I work with, maybe every man that I work with, is this idea of over-identifying with the thinker.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: [00:24:00] So that’s how we’re socialized. That’s how we’re rewarded growing up. You get an A on the paper or, you get praised by your boss because you come up with a good idea. And we think that’s all we are. And often I’m trying to get men to get out of their head and tune in or pay attention to what’s going on in their body to figure out what they’re feeling.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: So let’s say I’m a typical man who over identifies with the thinker thoughts in my head. And I see no value in feeling what do you say to an individual like that?
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And that’s really how I grew up as well. My, my dad’s generation, those who imprinted on us they, their concept of feelings was like, you don’t talk about it.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: You don’t express your emotions and all that. So yeah, I know that was a process for me too, is to really start feeling. But I think if it’s approach from the perspective of where do you feel the sensation, [00:25:00] it kind of bypasses this judgment of Oh, emotions, it’s all wishy washy and all that.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: But actually, you’re feeling a stinging in your stomach or the knot or butterflies. We all have these, sensations that are just. Very neutral in, in terms of talking about it. Yeah, I feel it here. I feel it there. I’ve yet to encounter anyone that I’ve worked with who wasn’t able to locate where they felt triggered and be able to examine that and explore that.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And it takes a route where you don’t get into. This realm of, Oh, I’m talking about my feelings. No, you’re observing sensations, which keeps it very clean.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Gotcha. I like that. And so one of the biggest things that I see in a number of clients is repetitive, intrusive thoughts, especially right when I’m right, when I’m going to bed or, two in the morning, three in the morning, you turn everything off, you put your head down on the pillow.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And then your mind lights up, and the circus kicks into high gear. [00:26:00] How do you help people with those repetitive, intrusive, unwanted thoughts?
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: There’s a couple of different ways. One is you could just focus on something as basic as your breath and notice how the mind comes in and pulls your attention away again and just keep noticing.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: That puts you to sleep very quickly because you’re again, not in resistance to it. You’re just noticing, oh, here comes a thought and you get lost in it. And then you come back from that and you just do that a few times and it just naturally has a calming effect because you’re not fighting the thoughts.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And the other thing is to, again, notice where you’re feeling triggered by these thoughts. So as more, as your awareness muscle grows, the more sensitive you become of This feeling, this thought is creating this feeling, and if you can stay focused on the feeling, it takes the attention away from the head, the thoughts, and into the body and the sensations, and then that again calms the mind down because you’re not fueling it with your resistance to [00:27:00] it, with your judgment of those thoughts.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And. To what extent do you make a distinction between like meditation on the cushion and then the way you go through your daily life?
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Awesome question. And I think most people struggle with creating this, extra chore essentially for the day. I have to make time for this now and my, my, it’s already packed.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: How am I going to do this? And if you’re not consistent with it, then you get down on yourself. It’s this whole thing. And ultimately, meditation is a state. of being that you bring to a situation, to your everyday activities. It helps, of course, to sit in stillness in the morning, especially in going to the gym.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: But the beautiful thing is, the gym, once you leave you’re gone, you’re out of it, and there’s, you’re not lifting weights anymore. But with mindfulness and meditation, you can continue to practice all day long. Every situation, [00:28:00] there’s an opportunity. to practice that awareness muscle. So if you’re waiting at the elevator there’s a few seconds there to focus in on your breath and just notice what’s keep noticing.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: As long as we’re noticing, Oh, I’m noticing my thoughts. I’m noticing my feelings. That noticing is the awareness that is a disidentification with those thoughts and feelings. As long as we stay on the side of awareness, we’re in a good place. Those thoughts and feelings can’t really get to us. They don’t own us.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Before an important call or a meeting, take a few seconds there, somebody is late to a meeting instead of being upset about them. Just use this unbelievable golden opportunity for a couple stillness and going within and. Or just looking around and noticing the decor and the technology and finding gratitude in that.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: You can turn every situation into just this amazing experience ultimately.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah, great answer. I remember when I was introduced to meditation, I think I was 1920 in Scotland, I was studying abroad and took a [00:29:00] course in Zen Buddhist meditation. And it made me realize, holy shit I’m not even breathing deeply throughout the day.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And so for years, and even now, I would remind myself just take a deep breath. And so even something as simple as a breath can be a choice or a moment to tune into. the present moment.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: That’s right. Yeah. The breath is this wonderful tool. It’s universal. It’s, there’s no dogma, right? It’s always present.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: It can be both autonomous on its own, but we also can use it. And even in sports we, I play a lot of tennis. And after say I miss a ball and I’m walking back to the baseline, it’s just that a few seconds of just focusing, refocusing on my breath keeps me grounded, keeps me focused on the next task and no longer lingering on what just happened.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And and my, performance improved dramatically just from that little trick. [00:30:00]
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: So what’s the difference pre and post meditation in your life in terms of the inner critic versus self compassion when you miss a shot in tennis?
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: It’s a huge difference. You just don’t linger, right?
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: It’s the same thing as somebody cutting you off in traffic and in your, the tendency is to cuss Adam and how dare they be on the road. What’s going on with them? You look over and you honk, whatever it is, this is all reactivity to something that’s already over. It’s already in the past yet. We amplify it with our reaction to it.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: The path of least resistance ultimately is to, swerve to avoid any collision and get back on track and keep going with not another thought of what’s in the rearview mirror. Yet we tend to extend all of that. We get to work, we tell you people, you wouldn’t believe what happened and it’s just all of this.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And in the meantime, we’re not just amplifying the situation that’s already gone. We’re missing out on life in the meantime [00:31:00] of all the. The aliveness of the opportunities of the connection that’s possible in the meantime. So same thing in sports, it’s just no longer lingering on what’s already happened, but refocusing, coming back into your body and getting ready for the next shot.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And we just need a few seconds here and there to ground ourselves to the. Finding the path of least resistance, which is also the path of most efficient, productive forward looking, solution oriented curious, open minded. All of this energy exists in this space when we’re present and when we’re like forward leaning as opposed to lingering and reacting to stewing and what’s already gone.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah, your example of, being on the freeway and getting cut off makes me think of the Buddhist notion of two darts. Are you familiar with that? No, please tell. So it’s, it, first dart is pain, second dart is suffering. So pain is inevitable [00:32:00] in life. We are going to experience pain. That’s just a given.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And then the second dart is how long do you suffer once you’ve received that pain. And we have no control over the first dart, but we can control the second dart in terms of length of time. And so in your example, first pain, first dart is pain. The guy cuts you off, comes close to your car that brings that fight flight freeze effect or that fight flight freeze response.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And that’s going to happen for most people. That’s just a given. And then the question is how quickly can you let it go? How quickly can wish kind thoughts or loving kindness upon that driver? How quickly can you reinterpret that driver’s actions in a positive light so that you can just let it go?
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Yeah, I love that analogy. You know what? I remember hearing initially this idea of well, suffering, pain is inevitable and ultimately also life is suffering. But and I never liked that. I was like, no, I don’t want to, agree to that. Life [00:33:00] shouldn’t be pain. I think the realization is just like you said, of course, there’s the initial event, which can be a myriad of things, and then it’s our exaggeration, amplification reaction to that event that makes it so much bigger.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And that’s really, that was key for me is to recognize that. Yeah, it’s unpleasant. It’s uncomfortable. Most things that, that trigger us, it’s not great. Of course not. But when we don’t react to the feeling, nothing is really that big to upset us in a big way. In most things, all these little things that we deal all day long are, minute.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And if we come out of reactivity to them, then something else opens up.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah. And it also makes me think of the idea that emotions are contagious. And so in your example, you get really pissed off because the guy cuts you off on the freeway and you take that anger. Out on the drivers on the freeway, and then you take it in with you to work in the beginning of your workday, [00:34:00] and all you’re doing is spreading that negative energy.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And I think, once I realized that, I really worked harder to let it go more quickly, to stay more calm, to spread more positive emotion than negative emotion.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: That’s beautiful. It really starts to shine a light on our responsibility that we have. Our interdependence. And we really, Happiness is 100 percent within our reach, and we just have to start taking responsibility for it and not seeing others as band aids or reasons to be unhappy and all that.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: So it’s not only just within our reach, but it’s our responsibility. It’s the way we give back to life, to others, to the world around us. That’s our contribution. Ultimately, we’re energetic beings and we’re contributing an energy wherever we go. When you can show up even in difficult situations and maintain that frequency of [00:35:00] goodwill and compassion towards yourself as much as towards others, right?
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Then I think it’s
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: harder for most people.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Yes. Yeah. That we are our own worst critic, of course, in our relationship with self is what we primarily our journey is about.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: So can you go into some of the benefits of meditation? Oh, yeah. Or the uninitiated.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Yeah. There’s so many benefits.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: They’re subtle, though. They creep up on you and then you realize, oh, I’m no longer reacting to the seatbelt sound in the car or the plane. It’s not annoying any longer, it’s just the sound. And the plane flying overhead that used to interrupt you on your phone calls. And now you just pause, let it pass, and then resume.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Path of least resistance and you feel empowered by that. Other things is the sense of time fades into the background when we’re always chasing the next thing and it feels like we can never get it done because we can’t. We’re [00:36:00] always. Living through the mind, projecting something known into the next unknown moment to try and know it.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: to try and control the steer and be in control of it. And that just keeps us chasing. And then as a result, we feel like we’re always behind and we, there’s never enough time to get it all done. And so that sense of time starts to fade into the background. And with it this sense of beginnings and endings loses its charge the fear of death.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Loses his charge, fear of the unknown, of the future, and on all of this anxiety that, that comes from living through the mental lens, where you’re, we’re always having to know things to be at peace with them, but knowledge is fickle, the monkey mind jumps around all day long, so even if you know something one moment, it just changes and you start doubting and whatever, then the next.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: So all of this noise, you, when that subsides, you find a peace and a calm. You know that [00:37:00] nothing, no situation is bigger than you, if you can stay in your awareness of the situation and you become the container of what’s happening, of life unfolding, you become a participant in life unfolding, you see it from many more perspectives and angles so you can be a part of it.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: a solution person, not a problem person. And you come out of this victim mentality and you just start to see really the miracle of life that you’re, you spend more time in gratitude, even the tiniest things. And I sit and have my morning cereal and it’s how did that get on my spoon for all the pieces that have to come together for me to be able to put this in my mouth now is just amazing.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: So that just keeps you in a more positive place, which has direct impact, as we know, on our health, our mental health, or how we treat others. Just everything’s how we
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: see
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: life.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah, less inflammation in the body, more frequent positive emotions, less anger, less stress faster healing, even faster physical [00:38:00] healing.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Which is insane. And I think that’s all because it reduces the inflammation. Yeah. It kicks that parasympathetic nervous system, the relaxation response, into gear. And then your body has a chance to shunt resources to places where it needs healing.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: That’s right. That’s right. So reactivity isn’t just mental energy, isn’t just mental reactive energy, it is inflammation, physical inflammation.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: So yeah, that’s a great point.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah. I like your point about time scarcity versus time abundance. And I totally can get behind that because I think so many of us go through life with this time scarcity mentality. So we are always rushing and we never feel like we have enough time and we’re always annoyed because we don’t have enough time.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And so I think moving that, making a conscious decision to move to more. I’ve got plenty of time. Yeah. And I think mindfulness helps with that.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Absolutely. The trick is really whenever we feel overwhelmed by any thoughts about something that we have to do, some situation, a big trip that we have to take, or [00:39:00] a project that we’re on, if we can Break that down into individual smaller steps that are less overwhelming.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Ultimately, we’re only able to do whatever task we’re currently doing and to focus on that is what kind of scales it down to something much more manageable and easy because we can only do so much right now. If we break down a big task into small steps. Just scale it back to where it feels easy, light and dare I say, fun.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Then even these big things can turn into very manageable, fun journeys of expansion and discovery and part magic, part planning, so to to have an idea and a goal, but to be open to how we get there. That’s really the sweet spot.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: One, and I think of, there’s a lot of negative emotions that are future negative orientation.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: So anxiety, worry, stress, dread, those are all our mind [00:40:00] trying to take us to a negative future, a potential negative future, which creates those emotions. And so one of the solutions to that is bring your attention back to your breath over and over because that present moment is the most pleasant, least painful place to be.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And same thing for the negative past too, right? That sadness, depression, rumination grief, regret, guilt, shame. And you can pull yourself out of that with practice by just coming back to the present moment by focusing on one of your five senses.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: That’s it. Yeah. And it is ultimately very
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: simple. It does take practice.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: It does. It’s it’s dose related. And I, that, that idea alone was like, Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like the more I do it, the more benefits I get, but I got to put the work in.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And it’s only because we’ve, indirectly we’ve done the work to Create our monkey mind to be really busy. It’s because we’re constantly being asked to react to things that we live in society is [00:41:00] always looking to elicit some type of right or wrong response from us some judgment.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: And this is for you against me. Believe those us, not those guys. And all this keeps us lodged in our head. So we’ve been training that muscle, the noise muscle, if you will, for decades. So we can’t expect the presence muscle to just take over immediately. We just have to start small and work our way up.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah. And then notice the subtle changes. Because those changes at first, I think are subtle. Yeah. So in wrapping up, Chris, what should I have asked you that I didn’t? Oh my gosh.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: I just love the organic unfolding of every conversation. I think we hit some of the key part, I think was to recognize that meditation is a state.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: It’s not necessarily. The separate standalone activity that you engage in and then you go live the rest of your day But really bring those mindfulness principles into your day. They’re all opportunities. They’re all life [00:42:00] is a teacher. It’s a mirror. We’re experiencing ourselves Ultimately and the lessons will be repeated until we get the lesson.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Yes, exactly. Exactly So the sooner we start looking, you know create this mindset of looking for the lesson I was like, huh? What is this teaching me about myself? Then we’re getting in a Good collaborative co creative place.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: And so perhaps most importantly, where can people get a hold of you? Oh,
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: you can find me online at my website, sirak.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: com that’s C I R A K dot com and everywhere on social media at Chris Sirak.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Excellent. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom and your experience with us.
Chris Cirak, Meditation Expert: Thank you, Dr. John. It was so wonderful. I feel like we’re mirror images of each other.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Marriage Therapist: Yeah, there’s a little bit of a similar image there. So that is it for this episode of the Evolved Caveman Podcast. If you liked this episode, please be sure to like, rate, review, and share. And if you didn’t like it, you don’t have to do a damn thing. Thanks so much. Until next time.
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