Online Dating: Master The Shit Show And Find Your Person

How to Master The Dumpster Fire Of Online Dating (Without Losing Your Dignity Or Your Sanity)

Ah, online dating—the digital jungle where romance goes to thrive… or die a slow, ghosted death. We’re talking lying, stalking, bread-crumbing, crashing out, and whatever the hell “darties” are (seriously, when did dating get its own dictionary of dysfunction?).

Gone are the days of meeting someone “organically” at the grocery store or through a friend. These days, if you’re not swiping, you’re basically invisible. Whether it’s Tinder, Bumble, Hinge, Match, or the bottomless pit of OKCupid, most modern relationships start online. But here’s the real question: How the hell do you navigate this minefield without getting catfished, ghosted, or emotionally scarred?

This week on The Evolved Caveman Podcast, I sit down with two online dating warriors—Irina Manta (Law Professor & dating app survivor) and Michelle Lange (Psychologist & relationship Jedi). Together, they host *Strangers On The Internet*, a podcast dedicated to decoding the chaos of digital dating.

Alright, So What’s On the Table In This Sparkling Episode?

📱 What is it REALLY like for women on dating apps? *(Hint: It’s not all roses and “hey beautiful” messages.)*
😨 How big is the threat is sexual violence in online dating? *(And why women always have to assume the worst.)*
👀 “I’m not a threat, why do women act like I am?” – What men need to understand about online dating fears.
🎭 The fine art of deceit and lying on dating apps—what people exaggerate (and what they straight-up invent).
💬 How to actually form a connection with a woman online (without being a weirdo).
⏳ DM’ing vs. In-Person Chat—Why your witty texts might not translate to real-life chemistry.
🛠️ How women can create a space where men feel safe expressing their full emotional spectrum. (Yes, dudes have feelings too.)
📸 How to optimize your dating profile for success (and avoid looking like a tool).
🕵️ Dating “strategies” – Does playing hard to get actually work, or is it just juvenile nonsense?
👩‍👧 The logistical nightmare of dating as a single mom—why getting a babysitter should count as a grand romantic gesture.

If You’re Sick of the Dating Shit Show… Listen In.

Look, online dating isn’t going anywhere. Whether you love it, hate it, or are just desperately trying to survive it, this episode is packed with real-world tools to help you stop swiping aimlessly and start connecting meaningfully (or at least minimize the horror stories).

So if you’re tired of the BS and want to actually *win* at modern dating, hit play now to win at the game of romance and love. (Become the person others envy in your romantic life!)

🚀 Listen in & Upgrade Your Online Dating Game! 🚀

To listen to this episode on Podomatic, click here.

To watch it on video, click below.

If you’re old school and like to read (gasp!),  the transcript is below. Reading glasses not included!

How to Master The Shit Show Of Online Dating (Without Losing Your Dignity) w/ Irena Manta & Michelle Lange – Transcript

Dr. John Schinnerer: Hey everybody, this is Dr. John back with yet another episode of the Evolved Caveman podcast, and today is a big one. Today we’re going to be talking about women’s experiences on online dating apps, and we have two experts here to hold my hand through this. One is Irena Manta:, Law School Professor, and one is Michelle Lang. And if you would, please introduce yourself for the listeners. 

Irena Manta: Thank you so much, John. So my name is Irena Manta:, Law School Professor. I’m a law professor at the Maurice A. Dean School of Law at Hofstra University, where I’m also the founding director of the Center for Intellectual Property Law. Aside from that, I run with Michelle Lang, the podcast Strangers on the Internet, where we talk about all things online dating, including how to do it, how to stay safe, and we have A lot of [00:01:00] awesome guests for our listeners as well.

I also do some dating coaching and I’ve done some consulting for the dating app industry. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Fantastic. Thank you. And Michelle, 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I’m Michelle Lang. I am a licensed clinical psychologist and I am a senior lecturer at Christopher Newport university in Virginia, as well as a therapist in private practice.

And I enjoy doing the strangers on the internet podcast with Irina, as well as being a guest here today with you, Dr. John. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Thank you both for being here. I really appreciate it. And just call me John, you can leave that Dr. Shit at the front door. So Yeah. Cause I just rather call you Michelle and Irena.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I that’s just, I was only saying it cause I’m going to insist that you call me doctor at all times. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Oh, okay. Really? Would you like it? Michelle, I know. I don’t mean to be disrespectful. I just, I always wanted to kick out that pedestal with my clients. And I wanted to get the PhD because I wanted to climb to the top of that academic pyramid, and then [00:02:00] I realized once I got there that it intimidated a lot of people and I didn’t want that. So now I just go by John, because no one can say my last name. Anyway so let’s get into what’s it like being on dating apps for women. Now, both of you have been on dating apps in the past several years, correct?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: 10 years, maybe? I’m not quite sure. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Yes, I would say in the last 10 years, we both have, for personal reasons, both of us are in relationships. Irena’s married now but both of us did meet our partners, our current partners through the dating apps. And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: so it can happen. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Yeah, it can happen. You can actually have successful long term relationships, marriages even.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: But yeah, we try to stay abreast with what’s going on the apps these days because of the podcast. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And so what was some of your experiences? And then what were some of the other people’s experiences that you’ve spoken with on the podcast? 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: There was, for one, a lot of lying [00:03:00] about anything and everything.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: A lot of men lying about age. That’s one that I saw pop up a lot. Also about relationship status, about their jobs, about any number of things. And then also, sometimes dates could be downright dangerous. Even if you followed the Although the right guidelines you stayed in public for the first date or dates and all of these things like men could still get incredibly aggressive.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Now, I do think that I and Michelle also did put in a number of safety measures that. did help and that made things less dangerous for us than they could have been. And so there are definitely things that can be helpful, like making sure a friend always knows where you are and texting them the address of the guy and all of that sort of stuff.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: It’s disconcerting that every time you go out with someone, you’re taking your life in your hands. And then the other thing that a lot of men would lie about would be their [00:04:00] intentions. So some stereotypes are there for a reason. And this particular one that a lot of men on dating apps don’t actually want the relationship, but Fake wanting a relationship is one that’s come about for a reason.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And so that’s very problematic. And there is also just a lot of ghosting and people wasting each other’s time and being extremely unreliable. So it did not feel like a very efficient process in some ways. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: One of the things those Oh, go ahead. Sorry, Michelle. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I was just gonna say I would actually really agree with pretty much everything Irina said.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I generally have had a positive experience myself on the apps, but the lying is prevalent and casual. And so I’ve definitely gone on some dates where for example, where somebody did admit to me on the first date, Oh, I lied about my age and just said it so casually. And I’ve had others where I figured that out later on.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Lying about age is definitely very common. But they just act so casual [00:05:00] about it. Like it’s not a big deal, but as Irina mentioned for women in particular. We have to really be aware of our safety when dating, as in elsewhere in the world. And so a lie is not something that most of us are going to take casually because it does make us wonder if you would lie so easily about this, what else would you lie about?

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And if we don’t know you, we have no basis for knowing, Oh, you’re really a good guy. And you only lied about this. The guy I talked to had what I consider to be a reasonably good reason for lying. The one who admitted to it on the first date. Which was he had kids later in life and he had said most women in his own age range.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: their kids were grown. They weren’t interested in dating somebody with young kids. Whereas I was in the age range, my, my child was in the age range of his children. And so he did lie about his age because he felt like his lifestyle more fit with people of my age. And I found that to be an acceptable enough reason as [00:06:00] far as reasons go, but there are some that are far less acceptable and.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And generally, I think if you can’t count on a woman being able to give you a second chance, once they figured out everything they know about you has been founded on a lie. So I would say that’s true. The lying about that, as well as what Irina said about lying about what they want. I did catch a man in a lie about that once too, just in conversation.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And he had said, Oh, you know what? It wasn’t even about what he wanted. It was about his religious. affiliation. And he said, Oh, I just put I’m agnostic. And I said something like, Oh, I know you’re Christian because it had said that on your dating profile. And I forget what we were talking about, but he was like, Oh, I’m not actually a Christian.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I just said that because a lot of women want to know that you’re a religious guy. And so I wanted to put that, he’s like kind of the same thing with how you put that you’re. interested in serious relationships or dating, you just check [00:07:00] everything. And I was like, Oh, like I was taking you at face value and thought that you were just telling the truth about those things.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And so I have since learned lots of men do check all the boxes to hope if it’s long term relationships, something casual dating friendship, they’ll even check when that’s not at all what they want. And so we are. Catching on to that, I think a lot of women are wise to that at that point, but aside from those things, I’ve had a largely positive experience.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I think as Irina said, it comes down to learning how to know really what you want and how to pay attention to signs of compatibility and red flags and treat each as such. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. Thank you for that. I was reading. I think it’s always fascinating how we try and start out a relationship off of these online dating apps with one or two lies.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And think that’s going to work in our favor. I never really quite got that. Like you want a honest, authentic, transparent relationship, but we’re going to start out with a couple of [00:08:00] lies and absolutely you’re right, Michelle. If you start out with a lie, it creates doubt. What else are you lying about?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And yeah it’s fascinating to me because I’ve seen like height, weight, not weight, but age occupation, religious preference is an interesting one. I’m going to pose as something I’m not, and I don’t know. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I think some of that may be even maybe a regional where I live. It’s a very, I would say if there’s a religion, religious preference dominating here, it would be Christianity.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And so I think he was trying to cast the broadest net in our area with 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: that. And let me just jump in and say, John, I don’t want to be absolutist. Like sometimes it does. work, but it also depends what we mean by working. So sometimes people will stay together, even though there was a lie, there’s always going to be, if we’re measuring it by longevity we’re looking at the relationship last 10 years, 15 years, we would say it [00:09:00] worked, but was there always something in the back of one’s mind of the other person, the one that was lied to about.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: I still just really feel uncomfortable with that, but I, I really like what Michelle said when she used the word casual. I really can’t be overemphasized enough. I went out with this guy who was like, decently nice guy in other ways, whatever, but he had light about his age. And he was already at the top of what I consider to be my acceptable age range and really adding some more years took him out of that.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And. He had a fairly prestigious job where he had won some prizes, actually, for things related to discovering the truth. And so I, I said to him, I was like aren’t you worried? What if your employer found out that you’re on these dating apps and you’re lying about your age? And he literally just laughed.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Because he’s this is like my employer wouldn’t care. It was just so [00:10:00] understood that quote unquote, that’s what everybody does. And so adding another anecdote to this, I went out with someone who like really lied about his age. It was like a good decade. And I’m going to say I could see it as soon as I met the guy.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And, at the end, by the way I did mess with him a little bit because I was a bit annoyed and so I, I messed with him a bit as a result of what he had done. But and at the end of it, he was he was like but you don’t understand. First, he had this whole story about how he works in advertising and in advertising, there’s so much like age discrimination and that’s why and Right.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And then he was like, he’s but you don’t understand if I had told you my actual age, you wouldn’t have gone out with me. And I said to him, yes, and that is my right. And it’s, there was something just So patronizing, I would say, and like a kind of borderline condescending about what you’re saying.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Do you think you know my preferences better than I know them? Do you think you get to tell me? [00:11:00] And to me, all of these things are various erosions and breaches. of the notion of consent. And so whether we want to talk about it legally or morally, that’s the domain where to me all this belongs, right? And so for him to just really say, yeah, like I had to get through that filter.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Now, look, there are some people who do the in between where they lie about their age and then they put in their profile. I’m not actually such and such age. I’m actually this other age. That’s a little less bad, but For me personally, that was still always an automatic left swipe because I felt like, who the hell do you think you are?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Who do you think you are that you get to waste my and other women’s time with your nonsense about how you want to make it through our filter? You know what? There’s a reason I have that filter and it’s because I didn’t want to meet people your age, even if you think you’re so awesome and so amazing.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. Let me ask you this. Is there A degree of okayness with the [00:12:00] size of the lie. I’m not sure how to put that better, but let’s say, for example, you have someone that lied and said they were one year younger versus someone that said they’re 10 years younger, or I don’t know, said they were VP at this company and they’re actually director versus male working in the mail room.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I can tell you for me look, I think the best bet is always just tell the truth because there’s nobody who is worth your time, who’s going to be put off by that. And so I do think it’s the best thing. I think you are playing with fire. If you decide to lie and you might be missing out on an otherwise great match for me, though, I would say there’s a difference between somebody who lies by a year of their age and something more egregious like five or certainly ten years because I think if and I also think it depends on their reasoning for it if it is you know if they’re 41 and they’re trying to get into the age rack of where women might think I’ll date somebody up to 40 it’s a nice round [00:13:00] number and you know you’re thinking that’s upper limit I’m less offended by that so long as they’re honest about it either right away in their profile or right away when they first converse with you.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I don’t find it as offensive with about a year. I also don’t find it as offensive with height if it’s by an inch or two. In fact, lying about height is so prevalent that I just assume most men are lying about height. I think it’s something that I’ve always followed celebrity news and I know most celebrity men lie about height.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And so I just, I don’t know, I’m personally more accepting about that and assume they are giving themselves an extra inch or two. So I swipe according to what my assumption is rather than maybe what they actually put down, but really anything else, if they lie about their position at their company, that feels different.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I guess the kinds of lies that I. would personally maybe tolerate or if I think they’re based in insecurity rather than based in the intent to deceive for some kind of meaningful way and so I guess that’s probably [00:14:00] where I would draw the line because I recognize that lots of people, most people have some kind of insecurity and it’s Being on the dating apps is a vulnerable space to be dating as a vulnerable space to be so still I think telling the truth is your best bet.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: All right, for that arena, 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: There’s some things were okay there’s a lack of precision on the app where it wouldn’t necessarily be a lie so let’s say you’re five 10 and a half, and you put yourself down as 511 rather than putting yourself down as 510, or another one. Let’s say you have filed for divorce, but you’re in a state, this is true for example here in New York, where it just takes a while for the divorce to go through.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: To me, I think it’s fine that you put yourself down as divorced rather than as separated, even though legally. Technically you are still at the separated stage, but that’s not like someone who is separated and hasn’t filed for divorce right like that would be the distinction for me. You’re separated and you haven’t filed for divorce, and you’re putting yourself down as divorced.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: That’s [00:15:00] shady, but if you filed and it just hasn’t gone through, that’s okay and so yeah the one inch thing you know it’s funny, somebody that I once dated briefly. was later on we stayed friends and he was asking me about on the dating apps, whether he should put himself down as taller because women will assume that he’s lying.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: So it’s the thing that Rochelle was talking about. And I actually said no. And then, because to me, it just feels like this kind of like race to the bottom, right? Where it’s like, Oh yeah, we’re all right. I should say to the top in the case of height for men. But so we’re all like, just Oh this person lied.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And also We have to think about this, like there is an element of competition, like you are competing with other people on the apps, as Michelle and I recently discussed with one of our podcast guests on strangers on the internet. it’s you know you are competing and so it’s things like age and height, like those things really do end up mattering, I’m still, I’m really not comfortable with it beyond, again, these sort of imprecisions where it’s [00:16:00] like, all right, you chose the more generous interpretation.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: That’s okay. But beyond that, it’s, it just doesn’t feel nice to me, especially, in a place like New York, there’s so many people don’t tell me you couldn’t find people to date without. without lying. And so that to me is just not. And if 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: you think on the return on investment of lie by an inch or by a year or something like that, but you’re still lying, you know how much is that inch or year really going to open up possibilities for you versus the fact of lying, going to shut down possibilities for you.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: What it makes me think of attacking from the victim position, that dynamic. Where in this situation, it’s getting defensive from the victim position, right? So I’ve talked to a lot of men who get, rejection after rejection on the dating apps. And with each rejection, they get more bitter and more hurt and more angry.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And I think it has a tendency to to shape or change our primal world belief about women [00:17:00] in general. And then we start to overgeneralize. And then with that anger that is growing, we can justify and rationalize Almost anything. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Yeah. And that’s a 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: problem. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Yeah, I think you’re right. That’s a great insight because it also makes me think about the story Irena was sharing and I had an identical one where somebody lied about their age and then was just like I lied because you wouldn’t have dated me if I had told my real age range and acted, as she said almost a borderline condescending.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: It is condescending and it is objectifying, it’s treating a woman. the potential person of interest, a woman in this case, as somebody who’s not capable of having their own free will to make their own choices for themselves. And so to your point, I think it is important for anyone on the apps to remember that while it’s easy to generalize, it’s lazy to generalize and it’s not accurate.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And so there’s in fact a wide swath of people on the apps. [00:18:00] There are. genuine people who really want a meaningful connection. There are genuine people who really want a meaningful hookup. There are people who are shallow, there are people who are lazy, but there are people who are good people and would be worth your time to date.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And they really shouldn’t be lumped. All into one group just because they’re presented in one batch doesn’t mean that they are all equal. And I think it’s so important for men, women, whoever on the apps to remember that we’re all lumped together, but we certainly are not equal. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. I, sorry, Irina, what did you want to say?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Oh, I wanted to say something because I’m really glad you asked this question, John. There are a lot of men who get a lot of rejection on the apps. There are also a lot of women who get a lot of rejection on the apps, where either no one wants to go out with them, or they’re only going to go out with them to have sex, and frankly often degrading and disrespectful sex.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And when you hear men saying things like, nobody wants to go out with me, I always want to [00:19:00] ask, and look, it is true of some men. All right. It is true. There are some men who are really struggling at that level, but it is not a lot of men. What some men are, what a greater number of men are saying is. Nobody wants to go out with me that meets criteria ABCD.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Now let’s talk about well what are those criteria that the person has to look like a model, or at least be some level of conventionally attractive that. I’m sorry, but that maybe you don’t match with all of your different qualities, because it doesn’t just have to be physical attractiveness, right?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: But if we look at the whole package maybe you don’t bring enough to the table for that. Are you, and so a lot of these men, I really want to sit them down and say, All right. Are you willing to go out with somebody who’s a little overweight? What about a lot of overweight? Are you willing to go out with a woman who has two or three kids?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Are you willing? So you suddenly, then all of a sudden it’s a [00:20:00] completely different, oh no no, I don’t, I shouldn’t have to do that. I shouldn’t have, I should be able to get whatever what Hollywood promised me. And I really think that’s. where we go down this dangerous road. And it’s very interesting.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: We’re about to have a a guest on our show that was on the show Jewish matchmaking, but there was a different guest, let me be clear, that’s not what I’m talking about. There was a different guest on Jewish matchmaking that a lot of women were really mad at. Okay. It was this guy, Ori.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And he was talking about how he wants somebody who’s blonde and this and that, which in Israel was not necessarily that common, right? So he had all these criteria. And then the matchmaker 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: But like from Israel, it’s not common that you find that particular combination. 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: That’s right. And so he had a lot of criteria and his mother had to love her and it was a lot of stuff, right?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And then when the matchmaker asks him essentially what about you? What do you bring to the relationship? Have you thought about that? Just the look in his eyes where it was like, huh [00:21:00] it was just so clear. It had all been from the perspective of the, the hero’s journey where he’s the guy, the hero in the video game, the hero in the movie, and he’s trying to win Princess Peach, right?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And it doesn’t matter that he looks like Mario, right? Because Mario gets Princess Peach. But that’s not the real world. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Now to be fair, I have seen this go both ways. So I have talked to with women who have a must have list of 25 items. And I’ve had to work with them to pair that back and say, that’s not realistic.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And into what I recommend normally is, come up with a list of must haves and deal killers, maybe five must haves and three deal killers. And you got to cap your list so that it’s realistic and possible. And I think that realistic piece.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And I think that’s one of the 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: problems of the dating apps is that it does help, and I’ll just go in this direction because I’m a man, I think it [00:22:00] does lend itself to men objectifying women, because you’re seen as a commodity, you’re seen, primarily you’re looking at a woman physically, and you’re just swiping.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And that’s not the best way, I would argue I don’t know how many men actually read a woman’s profile. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I don’t know factually either, but anecdotally I can tell you lots don’t. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Huh. I would think the vast majority don’t. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: They often do later. 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: They often do later on in the conversation. But I think one of the biggest 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: problems when I talk to men about dating is you gotta, you have to downplay the importance of physical attraction, of the beauty of the face, the fitness of the body.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: You’re not gonna go out with someone that you’re not physically attracted to, but you don’t necessarily, I don’t even know how to put this without Sounding objectifying. You don’t need to go out with someone that looks like a model. In fact, you’re probably better off not doing that. You’re probably better off going with out with someone that’s [00:23:00] slightly less, but less good looking than a model and someone that’s.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Emotionally more balanced, has high integrity, is a good communicator, has a growth mindset about relationship and so on. 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: This is 100 percent true. Unfortunately, we know society judges people a certain way and I find those studies especially very sad where you have men who are attracted to let’s say women that are a little bit heavier but are still not willing to go out with them because of how they’re going to be judged by society.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: You know what one way in which I’ve definitely seen it play out what you’re saying about women. Being unrealistic or whatnot is sometimes income expectations. So women wanting men who make more and sometimes significantly more money than they themselves make. All that being said, though, I am going to say something that’s You know, a bit controversial because that’s why we’re here which is if I look around like at some of the women that Michelle and I are friends with.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: So who are these women? They’re a lot of highly intelligent, many of them [00:24:00] academics, many of them will be like the profile will be their academics that are divorced. They have usually one or two kids and established careers and all of that good stuff. I will say that if these women make a list that is a realistic, what you’re saying, five must haves and three must not, and where they’re essentially, let’s see, looking for someone on paper who matches them.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: So let’s say we’re talking similar income, similar stability, similar looks, not nothing that’s totally out of whack. Most of those women are going to struggle finding their equal. Most of those women are going to struggle finding their equal because the qualities that they bring to the table often are not valued or not valued at the level that some other things are.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And that sometimes, and we’ve chatted about this outside the show, sometimes their intelligence is seen as a minus rather than as a plus, [00:25:00] right? And this I think is the toughest and one of the most unfair. Feeling things. And it’s what do we tell those women? What do we tell those women about what they should do?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Where should they settle? What should they give up? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And one of the things that we see in the younger generation, in the 20 somethings is we’re seeing a declining marriage rate. And the biggest reason that I’ve heard for that is the lack of marriage quality men that, we’ve got a lot of young men, they’re smoking weed, sitting in their parents house bedroom.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And They just don’t have a mission, a goal, a purpose, and they’re not working towards anything, and then we’ve got a lot of young women who have gone to college, maybe have a, graduate degree, and are, let’s say, kicking ass in the corporate world or some other job, and they have a hard time finding young men to match them.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And that’s a huge problem. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: It’s tough too, because I can understand there’s definitely, and [00:26:00] statistically it’s backed up that disconnect. There are more highly educated women. And and so As you are each speaking to, if women are looking to match on some of these variables, they’re going to have a harder time.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: But I think there’s another piece to that as well, which I think is helpful for a male audience to understand. And now this is at least my perspective. I don’t know that I’m speaking for all women here, but I can tell you I’m not somebody who. for financial reasons, thinks that it’s important that the person who I am with makes a similar income to me or more.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: It’s not that I would reject somebody because they don’t make a certain amount of money on the face of it, but I might reject them because of their income for a different reason, which is in my experience, men who make less money than me. can be insecure about making less money than me, and that becomes an issue.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Or for practical matters, if I want to go on a trip, and I have the money to pay for myself to go on that trip, but if they don’t have the money to pay to go on a trip, but that’s what I want [00:27:00] to do with the person I’m dating. So sometimes there are practical reasons like that, whereas you hear, oh she’s a gold digger.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: She’s looking for somebody who makes a certain income. And it’s not necessarily that sometimes it is, I don’t like being talked down to, or somebody treating me, bringing out their own insecurities because they’re not making the kind of money I am. And in fact, I had a failed relationship. It was, a failed marriage, my first marriage because of that very issue.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Because He felt, and it wasn’t just the income situation, it was also the circles that we ran in because of our professions. I love dating a blue collar guy. I come from a largely blue collar family and I’m comfortable in that world, but. There are some unique challenges when you are in a more white collar career and wanting to date in the blue collar world that people don’t always appreciate.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: So for him, he felt intimidated that all my friends, had a doctorate and we would talk about academic kind of things. Not that we did that all the time, We [00:28:00] did some because it was the nature of our work. And so we were just talking about work, but he ended up meeting somebody else who were in that context, he was, the smart one, and he was the one who made more money and he felt more masculine as a result of that.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And a lot of women have been burned in those kinds of situations. So it’s not always that. They are gold diggers and I want to make that point. I also, I don’t know if I really would be willing to share, but I remember you had talked before. I’ve heard you say there’s, it’s. Breaking it down to maybe overly simplistically, but I thought it was a good rule of thumb, you said there’s kind of three criteria where you can have two of the three and you have to pick one that you’re going to bend on when it comes to some of these key things that everyone really wants on their list, but maybe it’s realistic to not try to have them all.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Am I 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: quoting that right? Yeah, I think if I’m remembering correctly it was either three or four and I think I was talking about. [00:29:00] looks kindness income and maybe age was another one. So although that might be, that’s also somewhat related, to the looks point and it’s really tough. And I also do want to add that.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: I think what is happening economically, not just to the United States, but to a lot of countries is putting a lot more pressure on this point. Because, it used to be that a typical middle class person or family could afford to buy a house, yada, yada, we’ve all heard on the news what is happening with that, and, you look at what’s happening to rents, you look at what’s happening to mortgages, you look at what’s happening to food prices, and all of that, and I do think there’s more pressure than ever on looking at, alright what, how much money is this other person making are, it Are they in fact, am I going to have to help them out financially just because so many people are struggling today.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Another thing I want to say, Michelle about what you were just talking about, Let’s be clear, if you don’t have as high powered a career as a man as the woman, you might be [00:30:00] expected to take care of certain things that you would not be taking care of if you were the one with a more high powered career.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: So let’s say the woman is traveling on business. Are you going to be able to manage the household and manage the kids and all of that sort of stuff, right? Are you going to understand that she is maybe not going to cook very frequently because she’s too busy for that? And so that’s going to mean either getting takeout or you yourself have to cook.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: So it’s just a lot of things like that. And I think a lot of guys like. Either really or societally have come to not enjoy these things and maybe not know how to do some of these things. And so it’s this kind of they want to have their cake and eat it too right like sometimes they will nominally say that they want the woman with a high power career and maybe they enjoy the additional income that comes with, but they don’t enjoy caretaking tasks and in fact resent them and here I do want to say to those studies that talk about how how oftentimes women who make more [00:31:00] money still end up doing more in the household, and that sometimes when men, and often when men lose their jobs, women have to make up for it by doing more rather than less in the household so the guy doesn’t feel emasculated.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And I think that’s where a lot of women these days are pretty angry and angry to the point of maybe

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: I’m supposed to make more money or make money in the first place and you’re going to complain about the caretaking and maybe not do it. No, thank you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah, you get the women get the majority of that invisible labor but I can’t say that I’ve talked to a lot of men in the past 10 years and I’m in California so it might be a little bit different.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: But I’ve talked to a lot of men in the past 10 years who are assuming more and more. Of a percentage of that invisible labor, which I really encourage. So let me change subjects a little bit here because when we talked offline before, I told you about a speaker that I saw who was speaking to a [00:32:00] group of about 500 people.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: It was roughly half and half or half men, half women. And he asked the men in the audience, how many of you feared for your life in the last 30 days? And maybe, 20 percent of the hands went up 15%. And they said, how many of you feared for your life in the last week? And maybe 3 percent went up and he said, how many of you feared for your life in the last 24 hours?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And no hands went up and he said, okay, same questions for the women. How many of you feared for your life in the last 30 days? Probably 80 percent of the hands went up. How many of you feared for your life in the last week? Probably 60%. How many in the last 24 hours? And it was like 15, 20%. And it was really great.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Visceral example, like you could feel it of, oh, shit, like we live in the same world, yet it’s vastly different realities. And so let’s talk a little bit about the presence of the threat of sexual violence for women when dating in person off of these apps and then some of the stats around sexual assault [00:33:00] from dating via the apps.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Yeah, so I can start with that. So there’s been a study by Columbia Journalism Investigations that suggests that one third of women who have used dating apps have experienced sexual assault as a result of the dating apps. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Define sexual assault, because that’s a pretty broad term. 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: I would have to look up the exact definition that they use, but it was some form of sexual violence.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: So it may not just unwanted 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: sexual touch. Again, ’cause that can fall that definition too. 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: I don’t wanna speak for them as to how broadly they define it, but it was not quote unquote not just rape. Okay. Okay. So it was like, it was beyond that. And but and I don’t know where they’re cut off was as to the bottom wall.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: I’m happy to Okay. Because I really think those numbers 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: are much higher because I don’t think most women or many women are gonna report. That’s happened. 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Yes. Yes. And look, I have seen, I have [00:34:00] personally seen outrageous behavior by men from dating apps. I know people who have been raped. I know women who have been raped by men that they met on dating apps.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And this is also something where, honestly, it’s fairly easy for men to be a good guy here. Really, for example. If they see that a woman takes a safety measure, they should just react to that positively or neutrally. So for example, I went on a, I went on a date with someone and before I got in, this was not a first date, but before I got in a car with him, cause he was driving me back from the place where we had dinner.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: I wrote down his license plate number and I sent it to my friend and I told him that I had done that as an additional safety measure. And he got really angry. He got shockingly angry and he called me paranoid and all sorts of stuff like that. That’s a great red 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: flag, though. 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Yeah, wonderful red flag, as is the fact that he told me at the end of that date, which need I say, it was [00:35:00] our final date.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: He told me that he was now going to go home and watch violent. Porn. Now, this is somebody who, by the way, works with children. , this is, this is the, wonderful world of online dating, right? And so I was very glad that I had done that. I did the same thing. If I were to go to somebody’s apartment, I would, tell them I sent your address, including whatever apartment number, et cetera, to my friend.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Sometimes it would be like to my friend who is a criminal law professor just if I wanted to ask. For good measure or whatever. And so I, I do think, look, I think in a sense, even though I have had negative and scary experiences from dating apps, in a sense, I have also been fortunate because I think the fact that I am a law professor does worry some guys at least a little bit, right?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: So that they’re not, so they might not want to go too far. I also honestly think the fact that I am tall, I don’t know. Has helped me in some situations, right? I think women who are more petite, maybe guys feel like they can get away with more. Although certainly I have heard of [00:36:00] women of every size and age and height and weight get attacked.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: But really, men can be supportive and they can be proactive and they can, certainly don’t ask a woman to meet you in private for a first date. Yeah. Even if you guys want to hook up afterwards, meet in public first. So that’s just common courtesy. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. And thank you for sharing that.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And I think what I was interviewing, I was talking with a narcissism expert and she was saying, one of the best ways to identify narcissists on online dating apps is maybe the second or third date, cancel the date shortly before the date and see how they respond. And if they respond with rage or anger, it’s not a, it’s not for certain, but it’s a really good indicator of a red flag.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And I think that’s what we’re looking for. In this online dating is how many, an accumulation of red flags, big and little, sorry, Michelle. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: It’s tough. I was just thinking, gosh, because that is a good point. But also, I think it’s a fine line. You certainly [00:37:00] don’t want to get into the idea of game playing.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And that’s something that a lot of men believe a lot of women do anyway, but I would say to the male listeners, especially really just to underscore the points we’ve been making these last couple of minutes about it is just statistically less safe out there for women. I looked up some statistics on this too.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: So from rain, which is the rape abuse and incest national network, looking at the statistics that they provide, it’s one out of every six American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape. And that’s rape, not just any variation of sexual assault. So one in six. Then when we look at women ages 18 to 24, they, especially if they are college students are three times more likely than women in general to experience sexual assault.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Interestingly, though, females of the same age who are not enrolled in college are four times more likely according to the rain statistics. So also in certain age ranges, there is a statistically greater risk. But the thing is. Even women who are older than that age range have [00:38:00] been through that age range and have seen the experiences of their friends around them, getting assaulted or perhaps them themselves and they’re not going to forget those experiences so the cautionary.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Tales we hear and the advice that people like Irena and I are out there giving to women to say, do the things that err on the side of caution, like with Irena, not only taking a picture and sending it to your friend, but letting the person know you’re doing that. What good does it really do if you take a picture and send it to your friend, but then don’t tell the guy that you’re doing that.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And he does end up assaulting you. I think it’s better to let him know that he’s on notice and then. To your narcissism experts point, I had a client who just yesterday was telling me this about how she had gone on a really nice first date with somebody and they had a great time and they walked back to where he was parked in the city afterwards and his car had been towed and it was like partially both of their faults because of where they had picked to [00:39:00] park and and so it wasn’t clearly one person’s fault or the other, but it was an unintended Bad event that she had the opportunity to see how he responded to.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And I was so glad for her. He responded positively. He wasn’t blaming her. He wasn’t overly upset. They were just like, okay this happened. I guess we got to figure out how to get the car back. And it ended up being a positive experience, but yeah, I think, as far as getting one’s card toed can be but as far as the date, it was because it showed the type of person he was, and so if I can appreciate the person who you spoke with advice about.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Look for an opportunity to see how they respond to an adverse circumstance. But certainly if that opportunity comes up organically to pay attention, because it is so telling what kind of person you are dealing with when they respond, when things don’t go smoothly or as they want. And especially if it’s something that might be.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Their dates fault to see, can they be diplomatic and kind about it? When Irina was talking earlier about, I thought it was such good advice. She’s given about [00:40:00] if something has to give, she thinks broadly speaking, it’s kindness, income, looks, or age. And I always advise people don’t pick kindness as the thing that has to give that one should be a requirement.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Non negotiable. Absolutely. And it’s funny. I remember having a friend who was, 40, just gotten divorced and the bar she set was so low. for men that she was dating. It was astounding to me. She was looking for men who had their own cell phone, had a car and a job. And I was like, wow. 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: So we’re not looking for, six pack abs, six figure income, six feet tall.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: We’re looking for phone, job, car. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Some are and and I think I do think the guys encounter some women on that’s who are looking for the six pack abs and the six floor or taller and stuff like that. And so that’s why, again, I caution them, not all women don’t lump us all together. We really aren’t.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Most of us aren’t people who are reasonable. If maybe if they’re looking for just a hookup, purely looks based, sure. They’re going to go for more. [00:41:00] external characteristics that they find attractive, but I think it comes down to what are they looking for? What are you looking for? For certainly for people who are looking for a meaningful kind of dating experience.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Yeah. We want to aim somewhere between must have six pack and must have a job, somewhere in the middle. Of that would be helpful. I also just wanted to briefly speak. It’s actually shocking to me to your point about how many women in the last 24 hours have feared for their life.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Now me, I have 12 hours. I have feared for my life. And I’m here to tell you, I have only left my house in the last 12 hours to take my daughter to school. And the thing that has happened and it wasn’t in a dating context, but it was actually about 5 AM this morning. I heard this. I was awakened hearing this really loud noise outside and.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I looked out the window and I could see it was like I don’t know. It was far enough down the road that I couldn’t totally tell what was going on. I don’t live in a city. I live in the suburbs. It’s unusual that we would have something loud going on at 5 a. m. And it may have [00:42:00] been some kind of construction or it may have been somebody just being a loud, obnoxious butthead.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I don’t know. Part of me wanted to go out and find out, but the safety. Respecting part of me was like, I’m not doing that. So I stayed in my house, couldn’t get back to sleep until it ended, so it woke me up, but I was terrified to go out and check. And also last week I was pulling into my driveway.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And at that time, a man was walking right by my house with his dog on a leash and his dog was like pooping on the street. Across the street from my house and I just watched this man. He saw me pull into my driveway. I was still there and he just left it and just kept walking. And part of me really wanted to be like, do you need a poop bag?

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I have them. Would you like one? But I was like, I can’t do that because he knows where I live. And if he’s a violent man, I can’t have him coming back here and threatening or harassing me. And so it truly happens not only in a dating context or a sexual violence context, but the fear of violence or harassment.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: All the time. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: [00:43:00] Oh, yeah. Just think of walking to your car in a parking garage at night. 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Yeah, yes, 100%. And look, I, over the last 24 hours, I had a conversation with my teenage daughter about what do you do if somebody’s following you in the street, right? And it’s so sad that this is stuff we have to talk about and it doesn’t matter where you live.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Look, I grew up in Europe, much more sort of small town life. There was cat calling there all the time. You could be, you could be like a tween girl and you would already be dealing with street harassment constantly. And so it’s relentless. It’s relentless. And it’s sad to see how little has changed in the last, let’s say 30 years.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Since I started my teenage years, let me speak to this for a second 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: because sorry to interrupt. So my youngest is 17. Beautiful girl, smart, fit, and one of the things that I’ve always thought about is she [00:44:00] was a little girl was I wanted to train her to have the ability to say no and the ability to say no to me or other adults if it didn’t make sense to her and eventually the ability to say no with force whether that was physical or verbal or with volume because I think we expect our daughters to be polite, cooperative, compliant, docile, And then we expect them to go out at whatever, pick an age 16 and go on a date and have this suddenly newfound ability to tell a young man.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Go fuck yourself in the back of a car when he’s trying to assault her. And so for my daughter, she’s taken self defense classes. She has no problem speaking up. She has no fear of embarrassment. She knows to speak up loudly and forcefully. She knows that she has permission to get Physical. And I even used to joke around with her.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: [00:45:00] I would say look, practice on your older brothers. They’re just like crash test dummies. Like just, walk by and punch them in the face, punch them in the gut, whatever you need to do to practice that. She never did. She’s way too nice for that. But I think it’s really important to give our daughters permission and practice at saying no, before they actually start going out on dates.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Yeah, go ahead. 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Yeah, I was just, I was actually just going to reiterate something you said before Michelle, I agree with everything you said john now with the sort of understanding that women unfortunately also have to calibrate their response to. Am I going, how much am I endangering myself, depending on how I say no to someone?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Is it better sometimes if I just don’t respond to the street harasser at all, as opposed to telling him to go to hell? Okay, and so all of these things, a lot of them come with experience, and even with all that, I know we all agree on this. It is never the victim’s fault. It is never because she [00:46:00] didn’t say no the right way or loudly enough or any of that sort of stuff.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: I do, I want to come back to an earlier point too, though. And just so everybody understands that we’re not just beating up on the men here. Talking about the dating app Behavior2 is definitely me. Bad behavior by women also now it doesn’t tend to be violent. It doesn’t tend to be that sort of stuff.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And so I am not at all putting it in the same category. I will say, however, that you know what, it wouldn’t hurt some women to be polite, it wouldn’t hurt them to be consistent to say thank you, right when somebody did pay for a meal for you to text back in a timely manner to knob ghost people. So I actually think that Again, even though women are not to blame for the bad behavior of men, the more we can create a cycle of virtue instead of a cycle of vice, where we all act as politely as possible as much as possible again, unless somebody no longer deserves your politeness and then yeah, you should.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Ghosts, someone who’s [00:47:00] scary or threatening or any of that stuff, for sure. But I do think like where, it cannot become an excuse for bad behavior that there are, even if it’s true that I don’t know, half or two thirds of all men act badly in the dating pool. That’s not a reason to not, still try to be nice to people within the extent of what’s reasonable.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Let me ask you this. And I know this is based on absolutely nothing but experience and hearsay or anecdotal evidence, but what percentage of men would you say do behave badly versus those that behave respectfully and are trying to put a good foot forward? 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: It’s a spectrum, right? Because what does it mean to behave badly?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: I will say in my experience, the majority of men behave some level of badly. Okay, of the men that I’ve met on dating apps, and that doesn’t mean they’re all sexual assaulters or something like that, right? But it does [00:48:00] mean, I would say, that the majority did one of the following things. Either did something scary or threatened to do something scary, violent, whatever.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Or reached a level of rudeness. It’s not like New York City is known for its nice, fine politeness or whatnot, but really reached a level of rudeness of, where you’re want to ask the person like, were you raised by wolves? Would you not be embarrassed if your mother and father found out you’re acting this way?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And just are willing to discard people left and right or to lie, like one of these things, right? Either. Either the violence, the lying, or general rudeness. I would say most men that I encountered on the apps. Fell into at least one of those categories, and I don’t have reason to believe that I like I’m worse at or was worse at picking men on the apps than the average person.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: There’s no reason for me to think that. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: It’s interesting because I think we Irina and I both belong to some networks of women where they do talk about their experiences on the apps and I would say [00:49:00] that’s probably the theme as there’s more experiences of bad behavior than good behavior. You know it’s interesting in my experience.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I have not had many experiences of bad behavior I’ve never been sent. unsolicited sexual pictures or anything like that. And I think I am maybe just luckier, or maybe if I had to guess at what I’m doing differently than most women, that’s intentional on my part. I really I’m selective about who I would swipe on in the first place.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And that comes down to what you were saying earlier, John, about, I’ve been intentional about knowing what my must haves and my deal breakers are, and I honor those I, and I follow a very similar system to what you use about three to maybe four deal breakers. I think everything can’t be a deal breaker, but I think you can have your three or four.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And I’ll ask you 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: this, Michelle, sorry to interrupt. What are some of your top must haves? Cause I think that’s really critical. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Yeah, for me, kindness is my number one [00:50:00] must have and beyond that, some that are top for me are intelligent, and that does not necessarily have to mean academic intelligence, but can have an intelligent conversation, interested in world issues, things like that because that’s what I’m interested in, so it’s things relating to compatibility but as far as personal characteristics, it’s definitely kindness is the number one for me.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Everything else is more Take care. Things that matter to me personally that may not matter as much to everyone, but I would say kindness is my universal one. And and then my deal breakers are also generally. More personal to me. For example, I’m just not interested in dating a smoker.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And so I, that’s just a no for me. If somebody smokes, I just, I swipe no matter what else is true about them. I swipe, what is it left on them? Or have, and but I would say once again, like any indication that they are. Not kind. And you’ll see it. It’s shocking how many people are willing to let you know that right off the bat in their profiles that they have, [00:51:00] they’re like, here’s the kind of woman that you need to be.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: If you want to, for me to Dane to have it, to give you attention. And I’m just like, swipe left. Stuff like that. But but yeah, I think it’s really important to be intentional about who you’re swiping on. And that helps some for me, I just, I don’t tolerate. Any lack of interest, to be honest with you.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: I remember there was a one guy who I was interested in and we had a little bit of conversation, but then he lagged off for a couple of days. And I was like, Hey, you seem like you’ve dropped off. So I’m going to move on. It was really nice talking to you and I unmatched. And whatever app this was, it was the kind where somebody could pay to rematch.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And in this case they did. And he was like, I’m sorry, I dropped off. Like I am interested, but I just really wasn’t happy that I was like, I wasn’t rude about it, but I was just like, if you were, you wouldn’t have dropped off. Take this information on for your next match. It’s just, it’s not going to be me.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And I think a lot of women are willing to [00:52:00] give. Second chances when they see the kind of behavior that they don’t really feel like they would tolerate but they do tolerate it and I don’t so I think that if I had to guess as to why I haven’t had the bad experiences I think it’s because i’m very clear about what i’m looking for and I really don’t tolerate a lack of interest 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And I think that speaks to knowing your worth in the dating pool And so irena, can I ask you and then we’ll wrap up this first part of the episode But what are some of your top must haves?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: It’s really all of the same things that Michelle said, and I also had the experience where I became, I’m going to say I became more and more ruthless about anything having to do with flaking. It’s oh, you’re trying to reschedule the first date. Nope. Done. Done. Which, by the way, is also part of why I’m a little, I’m just a little reluctant about the advice your narcissist expert gave, because I do think the expert is correct about you should set boundaries with a man and see how he responds.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: I personally [00:53:00] would not feel comfortable fake canceling a date. Do you do that? Because so many people have negative experiences. Men and women have so many negative experiences with people flaking on them for what are usually completely illegitimate reasons that you really You might lose like an actually nice person along the way.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: So that was just a quick parenthetical comment. But but yeah, the same things kindness and you know what Michelle and I are doing also turns out to actually be empirically validated, right? Because if we look at John Gottman’s work, we see that kindness is what makes relationships work. So this is, in a sense, it’s not rocket science, right?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Like being kind, being respectful. Respectful. Ultimately, 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: follow the golden rule, just like you were taught when you were five years old. Turns out it’s still relevant throughout your life. 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And pay attention. Like what Michelle was just saying, like not tolerating lack of interest. What is John Gottman telling us about that?

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: That when you’re. partner makes a bid for your attention, that if you actually respond to that bid positively [00:54:00] that, that’s what’s going to make the relationship work. So this all goes hand in hand with what the science tells us, and you would think that some of the stuff that Michelle just said and that I just said, You would think that some of it would be common sense, but it is just astonishing how many people are not really getting it.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And John, this is where I think, this is where, not to flatter you too much, but this is where I think your work is so important, because you really are helping to teach people about taking this introspective Look, that many people have not really done because they weren’t taught, but it’s not necessarily their fault, but nobody taught them how to do that.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And it’s certainly true of a lot of men also true of a decent number of women. And as you sit down, you take stock and you have to have this growth mindset, you first have to, most people never took a class in school on how to have a relationship. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Yep. 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Most people were never taught how to act appropriately if their parents didn’t teach them and their peers maybe didn’t teach them [00:55:00] along the way they need to first sit down and realize like those guys you were talking about who have no success on dating apps, most of them, it’s not because of how they look or because of what their job is or something like that.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Most of them, it’s because of the way they behave. And that can, and the good news is that can be fixed. And I think all three of us are trying to do that. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah. I absolutely agree because I think that, if you’re having a, if you’re a man and having a hard time on dating apps, I would say the first thing you need to do is get your shit together.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: You need to figure out what your values are. You need to figure out what your purpose and direction is in life. You need to make yourself a better catch. And I’ve heard that there’s nothing sexier to a woman than man with a purpose. The other thing I wanted to touch and just go full circle on was.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: So my must haves when I was dating were things like emotional intelligence, integrity, communication skills, and a growth mindset around relationship. And I remember I was asked by a young Harvard graduate, she was saying, I broke up with my boyfriend six months ago and I’m [00:56:00] looking to get back into it.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Do you have any advice for what to look for? And I said, Yeah, I think that the number one thing I would look for if I were going out there right now is find someone that has a growth mindset around relationship skills. Because if you are willing to learn with your partner about how to be better in relationship, what can’t you deal with?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: But there’s so few men, I would argue that are willing to do that work and haven’t even done the work on themselves as an individual to even be able to step into. The relationship like that next level of evolution of being better in relationship. 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Gosh, I think you’re exactly right there because I’m thinking about as a therapist, the number of times I have conversations with clients about how you have to learn to adapt to what the circumstance is.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And in fact, with anxious clients, people who are anxious, such as myself, I’m anxious person and I’ve had to work. to combat it over time. But anxious people love to [00:57:00] consider all the what ifs. They’re constantly in their mind thinking about endless possibilities, but the work there on an individual level is to be like, what if I just learned to have confidence in my own ability?

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: To handle whatever comes so that I don’t have to mentally prepare for all the possibilities, especially when experience teaches you, you can spend all that time preparing. And then ultimately the thing that’s going to happen is somehow going to be some possibility you didn’t think of anyway, and you’re just gonna have to learn how to deal with it.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: So instead investing in your own ability to be flexible and to be adaptive is such an important personal skill. And so I wonder as we’re talking about this, if some of why we see men. Having a harder time with this than women might also relate to men doing less therapy on the front end, doing less of that individual work that then makes it harder to then translate it to relationships as well.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: And I wonder if that’s part of the intersection here, but I think your point is such a strong one that you have to be able to do that individually first, and then be able [00:58:00] to translate that skill to relationships to adapt, not only to. On a large scale, but in the specific relationship, what is the specific challenge we’re dealing with or this partner has a different challenge that they present to your way of doing things than your previous partner and understanding what worked for you before may not work now.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Such a great point, John. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Thank you. And to your point, I think that that’s why I go after Manbox and try and teach about Manbox culture, because some of the big rules in Manbox are be self reliant don’t ask for help. And I think we get cut off from two thirds of the emotional spectrum. And the most prominent, our primary emotion or signature emotion for most men is anger, some degree of anger.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And the whole anger dynamic is Michelle, if you and I are in an argument and I’m heated in my mind, it’s all your fault. And if you would just stop being such a fill in the blank, I wouldn’t be so pissed off. And that dynamic completely cuts me off from the curiosity to look at, what did I do to lead to [00:59:00] this rupture?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And what can I learn? How can I learn to be better? 

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: Can I share with you? This is a quote. One of my clients told me this past week. I had never heard it before and I love it. And I made a little infographic or just a graphic for it. Cause I love it, but she had heard it in the coaching world. I’m not an athlete.

Michelle Lange, Psychologist: So maybe it’s something all athletes. No, I don’t know. But in the coaching world, she had heard be curious, not furious and moments where you have a interpersonal conflict, try to err on the side of understanding why rather than. Making anger the primary emotion. I just love it. I love it because it rhymes and it’s easy to remember, but it’s also spot on.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Yeah, it’s awesome. Irina, do you want to wrap us up here? Yeah, I want to 

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: just add one more thing. I guess it’s two. First, I think we have a real cultural problem with this motto of be yourself. Be yourself, and then whatever, and then if people don’t accept you the way you are, like, You go girl or you go boy or whatever, [01:00:00] and it’s no, I’m sorry that’s wrong some of the ways in which you and again maybe it wasn’t your fault right but maybe the ways your family taught you society taught you were really bad for you, and really bad for your life and really bad for your future partners, and so you’re going to have to change and the notion of the same.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: Self, you can have self-esteem, yet believe in growth and in change. And I think that’s an important, like some people get a little confused there and feel like it’s one or the other. The other thing I was gonna say is this, some men feel like they are being endlessly criticized by women for the ways they communicate or for the ways that they struggle.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And yeah, you know what? Some of the time, like they, they are. But that doesn’t really tell us anything. That doesn’t tell us what is the best way to communicate or not communicate. I’m not endorsing negativity or being nasty to someone or anything like that. But these things, I think a lot of men should not [01:01:00] assume that, on average, men and women are going to come into the relationship with equal amounts of knowledge or of emotional experience.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: On average, because of the stuff Michelle was talking about, because of women having done more therapy and all of these things, and I think, again, this is where ego gets in the way, men are going to have to accept, hey, maybe I have more to learn than she does. Maybe, what if she’s right? What if and again, and here is where I think you have to be willing to look at the science.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: It doesn’t matter who’s a man and who’s a woman and who came in with what. Just look at it. Look at the Gottman work. Look at the stonewalling work. Oh, it turns out it doesn’t. The sarcasm work, which I’m being a little sarcastic now, so it’s ironic, but we’re not arguing, so it’s okay. The sarcasm work, huh, turns out to be really destructive.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And where I think the problem comes in is people who are not willing to look at empirical evidence who think that, again, they’re Self and their experience, [01:02:00] their gut just tells them naturally what to do. And you know what? Oftentimes, because your gut has been affected by really bad cultural, societal messages, sometimes you can’t just trust your gut.

Irena Manta, Law School Professor: And sometimes you do need to learn from the experts and look outside yourself and see what works more generally, and then adopt those things. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: And Irene, I think you’re absolutely right. Terry real, who I think is one of the best couples counselors on the planet has the same outlook that. Women are inherently socialized.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: I don’t know if inherently works there, but they’re socialized from a very young age to be more emotionally aware, to be more communicative and to be more relational. Men are not socialized in those directions. In fact, I would argue that many times we’re mocked and humiliated for going in those directions.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: So women fundamentally are better in relationships than men. And so his assumption and, we’re taught as couples therapists, like you’re supposed to play it 50, 50. Like you don’t give anyone, like you have to be fair and Terry [01:03:00] real is no, fuck that women generally. No better. And they’re more aware about what’s going on in the relationship.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: So I trust their perception of reality more when they come in. And I think that’s really important to consider. And, for the men that are listening. It’s really a wake up call to start being curious about relationship skills. Start checking out Terry real check out Esther Perel, check out John Gottman, because we have to get better at relationship if we want a happier life, because that is one of the foundational pillars.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: For a happy life. All right. So we got to wrap up this episode. This has been great. Thank you so much, Michelle and Irina. So this ends part one of online dating for men and women, and we will be back shortly for part two. If you liked this episode, please be sure to rate, review and share. If you didn’t like it, you don’t have to do a damn thing.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Counselor: Thanks so much for [01:04:00] listening.