Dating after divorce is a whole new game, with real wounds, real wisdom, and (yes) real hope. In this straight-talking, compassionate episode, Dr. John Schinnerer and Joree Rose, LMFT share their own post-divorce dating stories and how they guide their clients: what to put on your dating profile, how to spot genuine interest vs. mixed signals, and why behavior, not words, should guide your choices. They unpack red flags (inconsistency, judgment, defensiveness, love-bombing), safety must-dos, and the mindset shift that turns dating from desperate to discerning. This is Part 1 of a two-part series; next up: green flags, pacing intimacy, consent cues, and building something secure from the start.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

Connect with Joree & Dr. John and Love Isn’t Enough:

• Website: www.loveisntenough.net
• Instagram: @loveisntenough33
• Subscribe to their podcast: Love Isn’t Enough
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Connect with Joree Rose:

• Website: www.joreerose.com
• Instagram: @joreerose
• Subscribe to her podcast: Journey Forward with Joree Rose
• Join the Podcast Membership: https://joreerose.com/journeyforwardpodcast/ 

Connect with Dr. John Schinnerer:

• Websites: www.GuideToSelf.com | www.TheEvolvedCaveman.com 
• Instagram: @theevolvedcaveman
• Subscribe to his podcast: The Evolved Caveman

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 About Your Hosts:

Dr. John Schinnerer is a psychologist and executive coach out of U.C. Berkeley specializing in emotional intelligence, anger, the evolution of men, and relational health. He has worked with men and couples for over 30 years. He was an expert advisor on the academy award-winning movie, Inside Out. His online anger management class has taught over 25,000 people how to reduce their anger for a happier, calmer life.

Joree Rose, LMFT is a marriage and family therapist focused on emotional safety, attachment, and healing relationship wounds. she has focused on guiding women to greater life satisfaction and purpose and has written several books. 

Full Transcript Of The Show Here:

Dating Post-Divorce, Part 1 with Dr. John Schinnerer and Joree Rose, LMFT

Dr. John Schinnerer: Hello, dear listener, thank you for tuning in with us. This is Love Isn’t Enough, and today we are talking about dating post-divorce. I am Dr. John, and I’m here with my beautiful fiancé, soon to be wife… 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Joree Rose. This is going to be a fun conversation because not only is it something we had experience of, quite some time ago post our divorces, but it’s a decade. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I know, but it’s something we guide a lot of clients through this process. A lot of our clients. Have gone through divorce and are at that stage where they’re wanting to find a partner. And for some, it can take a really long time to understand themselves and what they’re looking for, but also to understand the nuances of dating also. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: To understand their trauma.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. And how that impacts how they show up and what they’re available for and how it shows up in relationships. And this is a different. Dynamic than dating when you’re 20 and 25 years old out of college or in college or just starting out. Because you know it cannot work out, right? You inherently enter into this hopeful stage already with some wounds.

Joree Rose, LMFT: If you’ve gotten divorced, the happily ever after is likely not always going to happen, or at least 50% of the time, as research might say. And there’s nobody who is going to come into this without wounds. And that can show up as attachment styles. Those can show up as trauma responses. Those can show up in fear of vulnerability, communication, safety, security, fear of sex.

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Counselor:  The list can go on and on. And yet people are so hopeful and yet they keep getting let down because they’re not finding the one. So why don’t we jump in and talk about our own personal experience? Maybe we can just quickly highlight before we met one another, and then we can share our dating experience early on with each other, and then we’ll go further into some guidance and how we support our clients in this process.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Okay. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: So yeah, my divorce was finalized in 2013 and started dipping my toe in the water. Didn’t really have much of a long-term relationship other than I think six months was as long as I went. 

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Counselor:  You had a few of those, right? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And dated for about two and a half years-ish. I think the interesting thing about my story is I realized early on that I was getting overly attached too quickly.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I didn’t like how that was setting me up in the relationship, and I thought I was losing power in these relationships as a result. So I made a conscious effort to change that pattern. The way I decided to do that was to just date. I told women I wasn’t looking for a long-term relationship. I was just looking to date.

Dr. John Schinnerer: If you wanted to sign up for that great sign-up, 

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Counselor:  Like there was a waiting list. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: No. It’s a metaphorical 

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Therapist:  If that’s what they were available for, Nice turnaround there, John. It 

Dr. John Schinnerer: kept me busy enough that I couldn’t get too attached to any one of them.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Do you want to know? 

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Therapist:  I don’t care. I’ve already, I have you now. It’s all good. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Okay. Three or four. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: But that was something that you shared that wasn’t a secret. Because that can be part of the challenge. You had to be really upfront.

Dr. John Schinnerer: It was small, upfront, and above board. Because if you don’t want to do that, then you’re welcome to opt out, say, no thank you. That’s not for me because I figured that a lot of adults at my stage of life were doing the same. They were seeing other people and, but so I figured, as long as I’m upfront and honest about it, that was ethical.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I just go out with these people like once every two weeks or something. Or once a week. 

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Therapist:  And can I just say something about that I hear from a lot of women? They assume, or I’ll take it back, they want to assume they are the only person a guy’s talking to and I think that’s a false assumption.

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Therapist:  You’ve gotta assume they’re talking to multiple people. It might be just texting, it might be still in an early let’s just meet for coffee, but it’s. That’s really common. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Especially as when you’re in your thirties, forties, fifties. And so just to finish that story up, I only did that for maybe five months or so and then I met you and once, and I fucked all. 

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Therapy:  That’s up for 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, you did. 

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Therapy:  He actually said to me, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Good at dating. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: We were like three weeks in. We were in the city for a night at a hotel and a comedy show. And you actually got pissed at me, like jokingly, but frustrated. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, I was joking.

Joree Rose, LMFT: I know, but yeah, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: When I met you, I just shut it all down. ‘Cause I was like, wow, this has the potential to be something amazing. 

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Therapy:  Yeah. Do you want to tell anything more about your side of the story before I share it? I think that’s a 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Okay.

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Couunseling:  Okay. 

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Couunseling:  So I was divorced right, a year and a half before I met John. And, I had never dated since I was with my ex-husband since I was 13 years old. And so for me this was both a very new and exciting and somewhat traumatic experience all wrapped up into one. I had some great experiences. I met a few great people that didn’t go anywhere but early on enough I met some people that gave me the hope that there are good people out there.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And then I had some really awful dates and I’m like, oh my God, are there any good people out there whatsoever? And dated one person for about eight months that I think that was my own. Insecurities, allowing boundaries that didn’t feel good to me because he never even really acknowledged we were dating.

Joree Rose, LMFT: He’s yeah, we are. We’re just hanging out. And I’m like, that, that feels shitty. ‘Cause I don’t hang out like this with anybody else. So I think that was something that I was still feeling too insecure to know my worth, that if someone didn’t actually want to admit they were in a relationship with me, that I shouldn’t have been there.

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Couunseling:  But that was. Early on in my healing and growth on my own personal worth journey. And I got to this point where I’m like, none of this is working. And I got a little bit bummed and demoralized, and I came across a quote and this quote changed everything for me. And the quote is from Rumi, who’s an ancient poet, and the quote says, what you seek is seeking you.

Joree Rose, Online Marriage Couunseling:  That literally changed everything for me because I had otherwise felt like I was pretty desperate. Like I was searching for the needle in the haystack for the right person for me. And that quote softened my anxiety and I was like, oh my God, someone’s looking for me. And that really changed everything.

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Couunseling:  So it was the Sunday after Thanksgiving 2015 to be exact. And I didn’t have my kids. And I sat down and I wrote a letter titled, dear Future Partner. And I wrote down everything that I was grateful for in my life. Where I was complete. Where I was whole. And then I wrote where I still had room. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: So like physical availability without my kids was pretty minimal, like maybe 20% of the time. And then I got very specific about what I was looking for in a partner. And I wrote it all down and then I meditated on it, and then I put that piece of paper away in my file, away in my file cabinet, where it’s still sitting in the file cabinet behind me, and I just released it to the universe and I did an overattachment to what I wrote and 10 days later.

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Couunseling:  I decided to re-download Tinder because I was off all dating apps at that time, and I told myself I’m not there to look. I didn’t want to get caught up in swiping culture. It was too exhausting. And it can be such a waste of time. I sucked at that. I know for women it can become very addictive and time-consuming, and it’s 

Dr. John Schinnerer: designed to be that way.

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Couunseling:  It is. And I wanted to go on Tinder just to look in the inbox to see if there was anybody that I had talked to weeks earlier that I thought was worthy of just continuing a conversation with. But when I downloaded the app, it was a Wednesday night. I was sitting in Starbucks while my kids were at dance, and John’s profile was staring at me.

Joree Rose, LMFT: I didn’t have to swipe. It was just, it was right there staring at me. And what caught my attention were his. Beautiful kind eyes and his credentials, which was a PhD in educational psychology and he was a consultant on Pixar’s inside out for ’cause. He was an expert in emotions and had consultant on the emotion, anger.

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Therapy:  And I thought, that’s so hot. If you listen to our last episode, we talked about all the different ways we can get turned on. And just seeing his credentials was a turn-on because I wasn’t finding anybody who was matching my level of education or professional interest. So I swiped right, and within, I want to say minutes, maybe more like a half hour. You responded? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I reached out via text. Dm. Yeah, on the app quickly. And I said, do you want to go out tonight? 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And it was probably already five 30 or six. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: It was a long shot. 

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Therapy:  He asked me out for that night, and I actually had my kids that night, and I said, I can’t do tonight.

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Therapist:  But how about tomorrow? It was the first time in which the immediacy of connecting online translated into a very quick desire to meet in person. We ended up meeting for lunch the next day. 

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Therapist:  And book 

Dr. John Schinnerer: With me.

Joree Rose, LMFT: So this was a lot of divine timing of this. I went to bed the night that Wednesday night that we were texting. But I imagine we texted a little bit further that night, even though we couldn’t connect until Thursday, and I went to bed reading a psychology magazine and I was reading an article on couples therapy, and one of which I’m trained in, which is Gottman’s, and one of which I didn’t have much awareness or training in, which is Sue Johnson’s work on emotionally focused therapy.

Joree Rose, LMFT: So the next day I walk into lunch, and lo and behold, John is sitting there. Reading a book and he’s reading the exact book from the article I was reading the night before. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Sue Johnson. 

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Therapist:  It was, I can’t even think of more divine timing or synchronicity.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And that lunch was so fun. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. It was intellectual ping pong about kind of professional interests and who we knew in common. 

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Therapist:  I remember you even told me, you had looked at my website and saw my video, how I talked about mindfulness, and I’m like, oh my God, he’s researching me. I had never dated before in which I had something online for someone to look at.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Right? That was new. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so then we met for coffee the next day, and I dressed up in a suit to impress her, because it was hard to find time to see each other. 

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Counselor:  Yeah. And that, and we’ve been together essentially ever since. But what I love about this and what I share about this with clients is that it was very clear that there was mutual interest and there was no question that we both were curious and wanted to know more. And this is one of the things I see people having the hardest time at this stage of life in dating.

Joree Rose, LMFT: They either can’t tell if someone’s interested or they’re believing the story in their head that this person is interested when there’s actually no action to demonstrate someone else’s interest. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Other than they just want them to be interested in them. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: How to set up a dating profile, how to go into these early stages of dating. We’ve helped a lot of clients go through this, so we’re going to jump in and talk first about what do you even put on a dating profile. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: My top piece of advice is when you’re dating post-divorce, even pre-divorce.

Dr. John Schinnerer: When you’re before, if you’re not dating, if you’re married to find a mistress, but dating before you get married. I guess I should be clear on that. 

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Counselor:  Dating before you plan to divorce the person you just met. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Now that we’re clear, are you clear? Are you sure?

Dr. John Schinnerer: I think so. Yeah. I’m clear. You want to have some great clarity, deep clarity on what are your top five must-haves and what are your top three deal-killers. So for example, when I was dating post-divorce, I began to narrow down my list. And so my must-haves, and I’ve also talked to people who have 26 must-haves too much.

Dr. John Schinnerer: You gotta narrow it down. Prioritize. Anyway, mine were: emotional balance, integrity, communication skills. Now I’m drawing a blank on them. 

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Counselor:  Honesty? Honesty. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Integrity. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I encapsulated all of them, so it didn’t matter.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So anyway, I had my five must-haves and then I had three, three deal-killers. One of which was the opposite of emotional balance. I didn’t want anyone that was emotionally volatile because it’s too exhausting. And it also leans into the area of personality disorders, which I wanted to steer well away from.

Dr. John Schinnerer: My other one was I didn’t want any more kids. I didn’t want to be with a partner that was even considering kids. It just. Okay, if you want to do it, but I don’t want to do that with you. 

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Counselor:  Not signing up for that. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I forget what the last one was, but I think maybe it was financially independent or something, or not needing a white knight to come in and save her, so to speak.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I think those are things that I would put on my dating profile towards the end, because what you’re trying to do in my mind is cast a narrow net. You’re not trying to throw the biggest net out there to haul in as many fish as you can to use, plenty of fish as a metaphor, but there’s also 

Joree Rose, Virtual Marriage Counselor:  a dating app called Plenty of Fish, right?

Dr. John Schinnerer: That was the reference. And you’re not trying to catch as many people as you can. You’re trying to get ones that are good matches to you, have shared interests that meet your criteria, and whose criteria you meet so that you can begin to work on. Is there a possibility of a relationship here, assuming that’s what you’re looking for?

Joree Rose, Marriage Counselor in Danville CA  And I went through both of those options. I think because I was so new to the idea of dating, I didn’t yet know what I was truly looking for, right? So I had to experience what I knew I didn’t want after meeting some people in which it was very clear. I was insecure. In the early stages of dating, in fear of who was going to want to date me, and I had just had no experience whatsoever.

Joree Rose, Marriage Counselor in Danville CA: And so I start off with that casting of a wide net of being really broad, not being too specific. I was fearful of a perception that if I was too specific, it would come across as needy or it would come across as. I don’t know that I just wasn’t going to find anyone who matched my interests if I was too specific.

Joree Rose, Marriage Counselor in Danville CA: And this is a conversation I’ve had with so many of my female clients because they fear, and this says a lot about just our society and gender differences. If I’m really myself, am I going to be accepted? So let me posture to be someone that might look more desirable. And this is a really shitty thing to do on a dating app because.

Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist in Danville CA: Eventually you’re going to settle into this is really me. And then the other person might be like, but that’s not the person I met. So my advice would be to really reflect who you are and who you’re growing to become, because you’re looking for someone who’s wanting to match that, not someone who is going to just want to live on the surface and let’s that simply be where you want to live as well.

Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist in Danville CA: So I started casting around with the belief of, let me just be really general, not too specific and broad, and that. Brought a slew of really shitty people into my life. I had some really horrible first dates because, and this is also a question of do guys actually read what’s on a woman’s dating profile?

Joree Rose, LMFT: Do they just look at pictures? Research says they don’t read as much. Research shows that women actually read more of what the men write. Men look more at pictures. So even if you write the perfect app profile, the odds are of someone reading it, who knows. At least it, I believe it helps you get clear within yourself what you’re wanting.

Joree Rose, LMFT: So once I realized that being broad was not the strategy, I got really specific and I, think even my Tinder profile when we met, I was very clear if I wanted someone who was mindful and talked about what some of those values were and I could hear a voice in my head being like, but what if they don’t know what mindfulness is?

Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist in Danville CA: Great. You’re not my person. That’s fine. So I think that’s just looking at strategies, but ultimately you gotta present yourself in a real and authentic way if you’re looking to connect in a real and authentic way. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. ‘Cause I had a couple of dates where the pictures of the female were like 20 years old and 50 pounds lighter.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I’m like, how do you think that’s gonna work for you if you’re starting off a potential relationship with bias? Yeah. I just don’t get the strategy there. I don’t think it’s well thought out. So for all of you who do current pictures, do pictures of you alone, at least one so people know who you are.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I’ve seen some profiles that only have group photos in them. And I’m like, who are you? Which one of these are you? And then the other photo tip I would say is have photos of yourself doing things with friends that are fun and engaging. You wanna show that you’re attractive, that you’re fun, that you’ve got some sort of life that you’re living.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So going to concerts, going boating, skiing, whatever you do, whatever your hobbies are, include those. And then I would also say no pictures of dead fish or animals is what I hear from women a lot. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist in Danville CA: I think that, I had one date that was so horrible because we even had a phone conversation first, that’s a great way to go, is talking on the phone, seeing if there’s a connection before you spend time in your busy life and week to vet someone out over the phone.

Joree Rose, LMFT: But I talked to this one guy, I had a great conversation, showed up for a glass of wine. He was literally like at least a hundred pounds more than his photo. And I didn’t even have the ability to finish the glass of wine and just be kind. I just was like, you start off on a lie. Like I just felt duped.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And there is no trust that can be built from there. I’ve had client experiences in which, okay. Fudging your age. I can see where maybe that can be the extent of dishonesty. ‘Cause we do have ageism, especially as females where if you’re over a certain age, the perception is a man’s not gonna wanna date you.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Or that men want someone 10 years younger. So that puts you into an age category. You might not want to be with someone of my age, but even if you’re going to lie about your age, do it within a close enough range. That’s not different than your actual age? I 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I could see going from like 51 to 49 to getting the cutoff of like an even number, especially if you’re aging well, you’re active.

Dr. John Schinnerer: If I were to do that, if I were to do that, I would put it in my profile that, hey, I’m actually 51. I just put 49 to get past some of the automatic screening. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist in Danville CA: But I had a client who not only did he lie about his age by, I think, six years, he lied about his first name. And they went out on a date. And for whatever reason, he had to show his ID and he got carded, and the name on the ID did not match the name that he had given her.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist in Danville CA: And so right off the bat, there was a lot of, she had a lot of dysregulation in not feeling safe. And I’m like, how are you supposed to feel safe and trust anything? This guy’s telling you? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I just don’t understand because my mind would go to, “ Are you married? Like, why are you changing your name? There’s a, so it creates a lot of suspicion. So the other tip I would offer is, so I wasted a lot of money taking women to dinner for a first date. And after I had enough dinner, I didn’t 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor in Danville CA: get dinner from you on our third date. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: No, you got lunch on our first date. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor in Danville CA: and then coffee, and then drinks.

Dr. John Schinnerer: It’s still a sore spot, even though I’ve taken you out to thousands of dinners. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: tea. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: so I, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I stopped, but look, I still fell in love with you anyway, so it was not critical upon the dinner. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I stopped going out to dinner as a first date, and I think what I arrived at was quite helpful.

Dr. John Schinnerer: It was basically, let’s just meet for coffee like 9, 10, 11, and. Let’s meet for half an hour. We’ll have a cup of coffee, we’ll share some stories. ‘Cause one of the things that hamstrung me in dating was I didn’t want to hurt anyone. If you get too far into that people-pleasing mode, you can find yourself in short relationships with someone you never really wanted to be in a short relationship with.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I got really skilled and comfortable with having coffee with someone and saying at the end of 30 minutes, “ Hey, I wish you all the luck in dating. This is not a match for me, and have a wonderful day.” 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I got really good at that, and that was the best thing I did.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor Near Me: Nice. That’s really hard to do. I struggled in finding the right words to share with someone if I wasn’t interested. And people think they need to owe someone a huge explanation if they’re not interested. And look, you, it’s not a match, don’t know this person. They are, in essence, a stranger to you. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor Near Me: The kindest thing you could do is to let that person know. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, and watch out for emotional manipulation at this early stage of dating. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Because some guys will really lean into guilt or pity, or perhaps anger, so you gotta be really careful about practicing. I literally practiced the words prior to going out a few times.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Talk to yourself. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor Near Me: Nice. I like that. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I wanted to be able to break it off cleanly quickly, respectfully, because I was realizing the majority of women that I was going out with, I didn’t wanna see a second time, not even close.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist Near Me: One of the things that I used to do on first dates, and I’m sure there’s people who are gonna argue against this. It was one of my values that I needed to vet out was my kids were young when I got divorced, and I was the primary parent even when they weren’t with me. And at times that.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Created some challenges with timing and boundaries and such, and it was also my reality and I was not available to date someone who was gonna disrespect me, being a mom and the value I had in my motherhood. And so what that looked like if I was out for dinner. I would let them know, Hey, I’m just gonna text my kids goodnight.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist Near Me: Or it might have been like a literally ten-second phone call to say goodnight. And if someone was gonna judge me for that, that was the stage of life my kids were in, where I needed to know that I could be available for them and not be judged. And I once went out on a first date with a guy.

Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist Near Me: Who had no children and then was telling me parenting advice, and I’m like, who the fuck do you think you’re? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I think that’s called mansplaining. 

Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist Near Me: Oh my god. But that was a value of mine that I had to show up in being values-driven and I didn’t want to compromise on. And like I didn’t have the exact list that you named John around what you were looking for.

Joree Rose, LMFT: I think I knew what I wasn’t looking for. I wanted someone emotionally aware because I had too much experience in a lack of emotional awareness and curiosity. But I came from that real values-driven place for me of what, how can I show up authentically? And if I can’t be authentic in this, then it’s not going to work.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Oh, I know. The other two things on my must-have list, it was, lifelong learning is a value and a growth mindset around relationship skills. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: So there are a lot of red flags that people see. Let’s talk about safety real quick. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Okay. Before we get to the red flags. Okay. And a couple of things, a couple of tips for safety, I would say.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Especially for women, drive your own car, meet in a public place. Let someone or a couple of people know that you’re out on a date. You can even let a bartender know if you’re meeting at a bar. Hey, I just wanna let you know I’m on a first date if I need any help, can I? And there’s a signal, there’s a universal signal for bartenders, for women that it’s a help.

Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist Near Me: I was really good at letting my best friend know where I was going and if I could because sometimes early on you’ve got a phone number, but you don’t have. A lot more information and you might not even know someone’s last name.

Joree Rose, Marriage Counselor Near Me: So I would do a little social media sleuth thing. I was really limited to Facebook. But if I could, I try to find the person and I remember one or two times screenshotting and sending my best friend here’s who I’m with.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Here’s where I’m going. And I would always let her know when I was home. I only once, I think, got picked up at my house on a date, and I actually saw that as a chivalrous gesture, but I had to vet out safety first before letting somebody know where I lived. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: But then you’re at his mercy if you’re in his car. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: A hundred percent. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And that’s, 

Joree Rose, Marriage Counselor Near Me: I had vetted that that wasn’t like, “ I met that day and came over that night” kind of thing. Yeah, but I also know women who were terrified to have anyone have any personal information about them.

Joree Rose, Marriage Counselor By Me: Yeah. And yet I think in order to do online dating, there’s gotta be a good amount of inherent belief and trust, and people are good and not out to harm you. Because if you look through the lens of “ this is unsafe, this is a stranger,” it can really limit how you feel in. The entire process, and I know women who have never dated for it.

Joree Rose, LMFT: It’s just too scary. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Alright, so what are some of the red flags? You go out on a first date, you go on a second date, maybe you’re with them two or three or four weeks. What are we looking for that tips us off for, “Oh my God, you need to run, get out of this as soon as possible”? 

Joree Rose, Marriage Counselor By Me: I would say any sign that there is of.

Joree Rose, Marriage Counselor By Me: Okay, so we had a, “ hit pause there” moment, and so jumping back into red flags, that our dog was barking. So one of the red flags that I would really invite people to pay attention to is when someone seems to have no interest whatsoever in you and talks all about themselves. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, that’s a great one. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: It might lead to, “Yeah, just no connection.” But if they are talking interesting things about themselves, you might not see that, “Oh wait, they’ve had no interest in me.” 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And ideally, that conversation should go back and forth, and it should be balanced with an interest in you, questions about you, and vice versa.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So if they’re only talking about themselves. Some possibility that you’re dealing with someone with some narcissistic tendencies. And if you see that there’s no or little empathy, that’s a huge red flag to me. And one of the ways I pick that up is that I used to pick this up when dating was that I can tune into my body and see what I’m picking up in terms of emotion.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I can pick up other people’s emotions via my empathy. So if I’m with someone and I don’t pick up anything. That tells me that there’s that plastic feeling right is a red flag to me for sure. 

Joree Rose, Marriage Counselor Around Me: In the example I gave a moment ago about my parenting, that guy was really fucking judgmental.

Joree Rose, Marriage Counselor Around Me: And he also had no basis for what he was. Judging me on. He didn’t have children, didn’t have experience. And I just felt being criticized for who I was and how I was showing up. And that was a big red flag. I’m like, yeah, there’s gonna be no potential future here. This is not something, this isn’t how I wanna be talked to.

Joree Rose, LMFT: This isn’t how I wanna be respected and something that I value. And that was a quick sign to me that this is not a right match. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And the second one is gaslighting. And gaslighting is when someone tells you you’re misremembering. It didn’t happen that way. I didn’t say that. You didn’t say that.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And then, so 

Dr. John Schinnerer: the charming is the love bombing to something to be aware of when someone comes after you hard and heavy with gifts and trips.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Be careful there. It’s not always gonna be a red flag, but you gotta be careful. Look for other signs. 

Joree Rose, Marriage Counselor Around Me: It’s hard to know what love bombing might look like at first when it’s just positive attention and kindness and generosity. Generosity. And I would look at that and I’ve talked to clients about this, about love bombing is when it feels disproportionate to the amount of time you’ve been in the relationship.

Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist Around Me: And you want to have a degree of proportion of connection, of gifts, of generosity if it’s too much too soon. Unfortunately, that’s a red flag. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Another one is defensiveness. So if you bring up something, if you bring up a perceived criticism or a soft criticism, and they get highly defensive, if not angry, that’s a really good red flag to me.

Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist Around Me: Financial, their financial life. I went on a really bad first date. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: That was the story I was thinking about. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Thank you. I went on a really bad first date. He took me to a bar in our town that is a dive bar, and they only take cash, and their drinks are five bucks.

Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist Around Me: And he only had enough cash for one drink, like one round. When I stayed for a second drink, he’s, “Oh yeah, I actually don’t even have any more money. I’m like, what the actual heck? You don’t even have $20 to be able to have a second drink at this place.”

Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist By Me: That was a huge red flag. I see people who are struggling to date, who don’t currently have jobs. That’s going to be a bit of a hard sell. And you know what, to your point early on, if you were looking for someone who is financially stable and you don’t want to have to risk being someone’s rescue.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist By Me: Especially if they’re demonstrating that really early on. So I know that people are at different stages of their careers, and they might have a difference in between jobs, but what is the foundation of their financial life and their abilities to be a financially stable person? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Remember years ago, I had a friend who was in her forties, and she was dating after a divorce, and her bar was set so low.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I’m not looking for a six-pack, six-figure, six-feet guy. I’m looking for a guy who has his own phone, his own car, and a job. 

Joree Rose, Therapist for Women: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And he wasn’t living with his parents. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I was just gonna say, there might be that part too. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: That’s rough. 

Joree Rose, Therapist for Women: I think it can be a real red flag early on to see how someone talks about their ex.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Oh, I think it’s a great one. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And John, you did, you had a really difficult divorce story. Oh yeah. But I don’t recall you coming in early on and just disparaging and shit-talking. Because that would’ve been a huge turnoff for me. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And I think what you’re looking for in there is, does the person have some.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Accountability. Are they taking some responsibility for the fact that the relationship went south? Which, there’s no shame in that. it speaks to externalization. how much is this person externalizing all blame onto others? in this case, an ex-wife, ex-husband.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Externalization also to me speaks to anger. How well managed is your anger, because when we’re angry, we’ll externalize blame onto anyone else. We think if they just stopped being such a jerk, I wouldn’t be so pissed off. The problem is we don’t look at ourselves and grow as a result of that.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so the more we externalize, you can pretty much. Put yourself in that space and say, this guy’s gonna externalize stuff onto me as well, and not look at his own stuff to the extent that’s taking place. 

Joree Rose, Counselor for Women: We know relationships are co-creations. It’s never just one person that caused the breakdown of a relationship.

Joree Rose, Counselor for Women: A big thing to pay attention to is someone’s drug and alcohol use. If you’re on a first date and someone’s getting three or four drinks, I would be really curious to. Wonder what kind of problem they had with alcohol and if they need that to be able to relax, if they need that to be able to connect how they talk about their social life.

Joree Rose, LMFT: If they’re talking about, oh, I was passed out. Just that they seem obvious and yet. We live in a social world in which there’s a certain degree of normalcy around all of that, but does it match what your level of usage is? Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I think another one is inconsistency. It can be emotionally inconsistent, it could be physically inconsistent, it could be inconsistent in communication.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Do they disappear for a day or two or three or four? At a time. Like, where are you? What are you doing? And are they emotionally inconsistent? Do you see these spikes in mood or emotion where you’re like, and I think in the beginning of a relationship, this could show up as like extreme annoyance at a waiter, for example.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Or a bank teller, like people, they don’t need to be kind to. How do they treat those people? ‘Cause to me that’s a huge tell. 

Joree Rose, Best Marriage Counselor Near Me: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: In terms of how they see themselves and. How above others. Yeah. Do they see themselves, which to me is always a little bit dangerous. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And the inconsistency in communication is, I think, important because I hear from a lot of people I didn’t hear from him for a week and a half, and then he popped up and was like, Hey, you wanna get dinner?

Joree Rose, LMFT: It would be a red flag to me. Like I was someone who, just recently got over being anxiously attached. While dating is really hard because we’re looking for more connection to give us safety. But again, these people are essentially strangers.

Joree Rose, Best Marriage Counselor Near Me: They are not there to make you feel safe and secure yet. But yet we’re looking for people whose actions can tend towards us feeling safe. If I was texting with someone who was consistent for a day and then a week and a half went by, don’t give them the benefit of the doubt. Take that as a sign they’re not consistent. 

Joree Rose, Best Marriage Therapist Near Me: I see too many people giving way too many second, third, fourth chances and taking the benefit of the doubt, assuming their intentions are better than what they’re actually demonstrating in behavior. And I think the behavior is what you’ve got to look at as the indicator, not the other one, but what could be the possible reason he didn’t text me back.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. When people show you who they are, believe them. The other one is emotional volatility, and this was a big one for me. I didn’t want to be around anyone. I’d already experienced that, and I found it exhausting. I found it trying; it’s dysregulating for both of you, and I didn’t want anything to do with that.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I remember I dated someone, and I made a mistake, and she found out about it, and she was furious. And I remember we were driving in the car, and she was swearing at me, full insults, full criticism, fuck you, you’re a fucking asshole.” And I was just like, “You know what? You’re right. I screwed up. I apologize.”

Dr. John Schinnerer: I take responsibility for that. And we’re done. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Nobody talks to me like that. That’s not going to happen. That’s verbally and emotionally abusive. This will never happen again. And that was it. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, Best Marriage Therapist Near Me: I think the cues for personality disorders, we once thought, “How could we set up a quiz for people to take to know if people are personality disordered?”

Joree Rose, Best Couples Therapist Near Me: And I don’t know that there’s an easy way to detect that because oftentimes the biggest, the narcissistic systems are going to show up as charmers in the beginning, and they’re going to be good at deceit. So it’s really hard. Someone who’s narcissistic, who has that sense of grandiosity, the inability for empathy, looking at their ability to take credit for their own doings, how they talk about others.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I would also add that defensiveness and rage when criticized. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: For even in their storytelling, right? It may not be directly to you, but are you picking up on cues about the people in their life, their friends, their parents, their exes, their children, their coworkers? Yeah. That’s where we gotta really pay attention to some of these red flags.

Joree Rose, Best Couples Therapist Near Me: ‘Cause they might be on the best behavior. Someone who’s had. An excessive amount of trauma is a red flag. Now look, we all have trauma, capital T, lowercase T, how we deal with it, that’s all gonna be different. But you gotta be mindful. This is someone you’re not just bringing into your life, but your children’s lives, your family’s lives.

Joree Rose, Best Couples Counselor Near Me: And maybe it’s more of a matter of, does my trauma match yours? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Are you on a path of growing, of healing, of awareness to be able to not be stuck in that victim role? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: So the other. Type of person I was trying to suss out along with narcissist is borderline. Borderline personality disorder and a borderline will reveal themselves through extreme emotional volatility, but they will also over, they, they call it over idealization, right?

Dr. John Schinnerer: Where they think you are. Everything. Like since sliced bread, you are better than God better than Jesus. And so you’re all good in their eyes at first, and then you encounter some invisible trap. They tend to lay out these traps and don’t tell you about it. And when you step in one, which you inevitably do, you go from all good to all bad, and their biggest fears are abandonment.

Dr. John Schinnerer: They’re deeply emotionally wounded. They can heal and it’s not your job to heal them. But one of the tells is when you break it off with them. They’ll threaten suicide often. Yeah. They bring you back in with guilt. And I never quite got that strategy either in the sense of someone’s trying to break up with you, you threaten to kill yourself.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Like, how’s that gonna work for the relationship? I think that both those types of individuals are ones you definitely wanna keep away with a 10-foot pole. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. I think we could keep going with all these red flags ’cause we see a lot of these experiences with clients and had our own, one, a simple one I just wanna add as we end is lying and disrespect.

Joree Rose, Best Couples Counselor Near Me: I went on a first date with a guy. And again, these stories are embarrassing to share because I didn’t feel I had self-worth enough to cut it off when I saw the first sign there. But this is me being vulnerable and sharing, Hey, I was aware and I still got stuck in some of these dynamics. I was meeting a guy for a date, I got to the bar and he wasn’t there, and then I’m waiting for a few minutes and he ended up texting.

Joree Rose, Best Couples Counselor By Me: He’s oh, I’m just now getting on the bridge, which meant at that moment he was still 40 minutes away. And I was like, how disrespectful do you have to be to already be late? And then when you tell me you’re late, you’re still 40 minutes away. And stupid me, I ended up leaving and I’m walking down the street and I called him. I don’t even know why I didn’t even just text. I called him and I said, Hey, I just wanna let you know I left. I literally passed him on the street, like two people on cell phones. And I heard the conversation by the person next to me was on the person on the phone, and I ended up going back in for a drink.

Joree Rose, Best Couples Counselor By Me: And it ended up being a bumble fuck of a night because I was looking for the best in him and not recognizing he was lying from the get-go and disrespecting me from the get-go. That was embarrassing. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. You gotta figure if that’s your first encounter with someone, what does a possible relationship look like?

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. And then he ended up letting me know the next day, “Oh, I’m so sorry. My cousin just died. I’m in trauma. And I’m like, maybe you’re not in the space to be dating. So be aware of what emotional, physical, mental, spiritual state you are in, and are you available to show up in the way that you would want?”

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And make sure you’ve come to peace with your divorce story. So that you’re not going out there spewing venom about your ex as well, because you want to, again, be able to take some responsibility for the fact that the relationship ended. There’s no failure.

Dr. John Schinnerer: There’s no shame in the fact that. It ended. In fact, a 10, 15, 20-year relationship is a win in my book. 

Joree Rose, Best Couples Counseling By Me: It’s still a success there. There’s one more thing I want to say. Here is a red flag, and this might be a bigger difference depending on the stage that you are in and what you’re really looking for in dating.

Joree Rose, LMFT: It’s a red flag to me if someone’s divorce is not yet final. Because until that divorce is final, they are still going through, whether it’s litigation, mediation, decision-making. Early on in dating, I was never a fan of that. I wouldn’t do it. I wouldn’t want to date someone who was nesting. That was my value set. I’m fine with people dating before their divorce is final, but do it to just date. But women essentially get really excited to have the assumption, “ I’m meeting my next long-term partner on this first date,” and they’ve made the decision, not just women, they’ve made the decision.

Joree Rose, Best Couples Counseling By Me: This person’s going to be a great match before they even get to know them. But that’s a key for me, of emotional. Availability that divorce has got to be final. Yeah. And otherwise, you’re bringing too much baggage. Or you can both be trauma bonding on your divorce process and you’re not really coming from a healed place.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So that is it for part one. Part one, we realized this got longer than we thought. So we’re going to divide this into a two-part series on. Post divorce dating. 

Joree Rose, Best Couples Therapy By Me: Yeah. Because there’s even actually a part three, which might be about blending families. Which is the next stage of assuming it all goes well.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So the next episode we’re going to cover 

Joree Rose, LMFT: some green flags on dating. How to not attach too quickly, how to care less, and how to. Pay attention to the signs of interest in the other person, the ways to set the foundation for building a successful relationship. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: How to pursue, how to ask for consent, how often to ask for consent.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Awareness of signs of interest. We see a lot of men missing out on this. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. How to deal with sex. And there’s a whole slew of topics with that, and specifically one that I’ve guided a lot of women in is you want to start having sex, which is great. You’re consenting adults, you can do that.

Joree Rose, Best Couples Therapy By Me: But if there are multiple sexual partners, either for you or the other person, how to talk about that. So stay tuned for the next part two of Dating Post-Divorce. Thank you so much for tuning in today. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And if this episode was meaningful to you, please be sure to like, rate, review, and share it with someone that might also value it, because that’s the way that we get the word out.