Everybody Wants This – Podcast #2
In the second episode, renowned couples counselors, Dr. John Schinnerer and Joree Rose, LMFT, explore what makes a healthy, happy relationship by dissecting the themes from the Netflix hit show Nobody Wants This. Using the show’s rare portrayal of a healthy relationship as a starting point, they identify the common pitfalls couples fall into and offer expert advice on how to avoid them. Ultimately, they seek to answer the question, “How can I fix my relationship?” And more importantly, they offer an aspirational illustration of a healthy, thriving relationship, a model with which no one grew up. They dive into the importance of trust, non defensive listening, effective communication, validating emotions, capitalizing (supporting someone’s good news), self-awareness, emotional safety, and honoring your partner’s nuances or idiosyncrasies. Joree and Dr. John, who have done couples therapy for a combined 50 years, highlight examples from the show that demonstrate these, along with real-life examples from their own relationship, and how to create a relationship that not only lasts, but truly flourishes. Whether you’re a fan of the show or simply looking to create a happier, safer relationship, this episode offers practical, heartfelt advice on how to foster a romantic partnership filled with love, connection, fulfillment and resilience.
Follow us on Instagram @loveisntenough33. Visit www.loveisntenough.net for more info and how to work with us. Check out their revolutionary monthly relationship master class now available also! To learn more about, Dr. John, visit Guide To Self, and to learn more about Joree, visit JoreeRose.com.
Everybody Wants This Transcript – Episode 2
Introduction and Episode Overview
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to love isn’t enough. This is our second episode and we are actually really excited to be talking about something that is seemingly getting a lot of conversation going in pop culture, which is the Netflix hit with Adam Brody and Kristen Bell. Nobody wants this.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Why does it matter?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, it matters because it’s the first time Joree and I have really seen an example of a relatively psychologically healthy relationship in media.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. I mean, as John and I were watching this, there was a lot that we related to right off the bat.
Cultural Differences in Relationships
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I’m Jewish. John’s not. And there are so many different cultural differences that Adam Brody’s character Noah and Kristen Bell character Joanne demonstrate.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And I can tell you, [00:01:00] and this is kind of a fun little anecdote for you know, when we first started dating, I had said to John, You know, I’m really I’m not that Jewish. And he was like, Okay, you know that’s cool. And as it turned out, I realized just how Jewish I was, because I had been raised in a culture in which I was surrounded by so many Jews that I didn’t have an opportunity to recognize.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: What was even some Jewish mannerisms or belief systems or superstitions or cultural beliefs or values that I thought that was just me. But in absence of John having exposure to that, I realized, wow, like this is really, really rooted in my Judaism. Why? And while I’m not religious. I’m very much part of the Jewish culture and value set, and I thought that was portrayed in some very real ways in this show, but also in [00:02:00] some ways that stereotypically may not present Jews in the best light, and yet we know stereotypes are based in truth and that’s going to be a challenge, no matter what ethnic group or racial group or religious group where we’re looking at.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah.
Healthy Relationship Behaviors
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So what are some of the things that you saw in the relationship that you saw were that you thought were examples of healthy behaviors in relationship?
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yes. So many. I mean, we right off the bat, we’re recognizing they both seem really emotionally aware. They seemed to know who they were. They seem to know what they wanted, what they didn’t, they seem to be quite aware of their quirks and their new nuances that might be portrayed by a potential partner as too much.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And they didn’t shy away from naming that from sharing it from owning it, and even joking, a bit about, you know, some of the things that perhaps. Might come across [00:03:00] less than desirable in a new relationship. What do you think?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. I think one of the things that I saw early on was that Noah didn’t appear to be overly man boxed to me.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So he seemed to me to be comfortable with his emotions. He seemed to me to be comfortable taking off the mask, putting down the armor. He wasn’t overly defensive in his responses when he would do something wrong. He would admit to making mistakes. I mean, like episode two, right there outside the temple and she’s getting in the car because her sister’s convinced her that, Oh my God, like you shouldn’t wait 15 minutes.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: No one would make you wait. Like you need to get out of there. And so she’s getting in the car and he kind of runs up and says, Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait. Like I made you wait. 15 minutes, and I’m sorry about that.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah, that wasn’t cool. I apologize. Yeah, he every single time owned up to whatever it is that might have hurt her feelings that might have been portrayed in a less than desirable way.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And [00:04:00] maybe talk for a second, John, around why might be so hard for most men?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, it’s how we’re socialized. We’re, we’re not socialized in the direction of relationality, of emotionality, of communication. And I think going back to middle school and high school, when we get a girlfriend, we are pretty immediately, we offend all of our male friends.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Mm. Because they’re jealous and but hurt about the time and attention that we’re giving to our new girlfriend. And so we get mocked. for it. Oh dude, you’re so pussy whipped. Oh, you know, and, and they want your time and attention, but it’s, it’s kind of how we men. It’s one upmanship. Your mama jokes. Like there’s not much in terms of depth and authenticity.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so we don’t learn how to be vulnerable. We don’t learn, we don’t even know what we feel [00:05:00] generally. And so it makes it really difficult.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah.
Vulnerability and Emotional Honesty
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And Kristen Bell’s character, Joanne, she. I forget exactly which episode it was in, but it was one of the early ones in which they want to be vulnerable with each other.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And you can tell right off the bat that they’re wanting to do this relationship differently. They’re not wanting to fall back into the same traps that people who are dating always fall into. And what that might look like is not sharing how they really feel, not exposing some of their deeper truths or even dark secrets.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And I don’t mean like skeletons in the closet, but just things that are hard to share about yourself. And they wanted to go deep pretty quick. And she wanted that from him. But when he turned that back on her, it was really interesting. She realized like, Oh shit, this is really hard. And you see this moment where she wants.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: To be vulnerable, but has trouble facing him. And so she ends up turning around. So [00:06:00] she’s not looking at him while she expresses what she’s terrified of. And she’s terrified of getting emotionally attached to someone who might hurt her.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think that’s, that’s so accurate. Cause I always tell clients like, look, if you’re truly deeply in love with someone, there is.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think that there’s an appreciable amount of fear in there as well, if you’re doing it correctly, in my opinion, because if you’re opening yourself up, if you’re opening your heart to someone that you love and trust, you’re also potentially giving them ammo to use against you.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: 100%. And so
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: you have to trust that they’re going to treat your heart gently.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And that’s not a given. And, and I think it’s actually on the, on the flip side, it’s inevitable that they’re going to hurt you. And, you know, typically that’s unintentionally
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: right.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And then how do you recover from that?
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right. Well, and when she turned around, one of the first things that it made me think about was a Jim Morrison in the doors who had a hard time facing the audience.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: When he would sing because it [00:07:00] was too vulnerable, but it really makes me think about when you and I first started dating. I was very aware, and I think this is one of the things I really resonated with this show. I was really really aware that I wanted this experience. To be different and I didn’t have a ton of dating experience when I was married to my high school.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Sweetheart. I dated for about a year and a half. You know, no one really long term and a lot of first dates and not a lot of second dates, but in the experience of dating, I knew if I couldn’t be vulnerable, if I couldn’t be myself, I didn’t want to play the game of having to pretend to be on my best behavior early on only to then.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Really allow my true nuances to come through to then have you be like, wait, where’d all this sudden come from? And it’s really, really scary to be that vulnerable because someone can reject you pretty quickly. And one of the things that, you know, we often see with a lot of [00:08:00] people is the fear of I’m not enough or I’m too much.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And those are opposite ends of the same spectrum, really. And we were just talking, talking last night about how this. At the root of that is a sense of low self worth, right? And insecurity, but when we
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: shame even, perhaps,
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: perhaps for sure. But I remember specifically where we were sitting the moment I told you early on, Hey, just so you know, apparently I’m really needy.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And this is what I had been told. This is a wound that was raw for me. And I wanted to feel like, okay, John, I need to let you know, like all the information before you make this choice in choosing to date me. And that was really scary. And I loved your response and your response to me was what you’re not needy.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, the difference from what my previous experience was in, in partnering or dating was. My needs matched yours [00:09:00] and you were, I think I
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: saw you as human and having needs.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But I also think it’s a cop out by men a lot of times to tell women, Oh, you’re so needy. Right. Because it’s just a way of shutting them down and it gets them out of whatever demands or requests their partner has.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, and the truth is you were quote, just as needy as I was, right? I mean, you were,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I’m human. And I have exactly,
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: exactly right. You’re not needy for having needs, but I joke with that language because that’s what we hear in dating. And when I was vulnerable in, in naming that, then I really wasn’t as worried about it.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And. At the same time, it’s a work in progress, right? And there’s going to be a lot of factors that help that become less of an issue, more safe and secure. The attachment is in the relationship, the more vulnerable you are to share what your needs are without fear of rejection or abandonment, which can be really difficult.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: But I do want to point out, I actually really like how she turned away to speak her truth. And it’s something that I think you [00:10:00] and I have noticed sometimes in conversations. We’ve had more success in getting the hard stuff off our chest. If we’re not facing eye to eye,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: yeah. Perhaps on the phone, for example,
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: either, either on the phone.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: But I remember what specific time we were sitting in my backyard, side by side on lounge chairs, and we were facing the same direction in the backyard. We weren’t looking at each other or on a walk where you’re side by side. It’s a little bit easier to say what you need to say. And I’ve even suggested this for parents.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It’s a little bit safer.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. I, I agree. And it’s interesting because that’s how men usually communicate. Traditionally we’ve been side by side shoulder to shoulder, not so much face to face. And, you know, if you think of us hunting back in the day in a tribe, We’re shoulder to shoulder. Kind of hunting for the elk or whatever it is, the deer.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And, and that’s safer for us than eye contact.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: [00:11:00] Yeah. So let’s go back to the show and a couple of other things that we really saw as highlighting relationships.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So one of the things I saw, which was this idea of the growth mindset that Noah was showing and he was having a conversation. And we were talking about the last time I met her.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And we were sitting with Joanne and talking about his last relationship and saying how, you know, Rebecca and I never talked about anything. Substantive or uncomfortable. And we never really got to know each other. We never, never got below the surface. And as a result, the relationship blew up.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And, and I, I look at that as.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: The idea of what am I supposed to learn from the last relationship to change going into the next one? Yeah. And I love that idea.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And that was a really interesting dynamic in what he named as we see in the first episode where Rebecca found the engagement ring, put it on and kind of took that upon herself.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And When she said, you know, what, what’s the big deal here? And Noah’s like, this isn’t how it’s supposed to feel. That felt a little reverse gender role, a little bit [00:12:00] of the woman down playing the need for the, you know, the proposal or that wanting more depth or more connection. And the man in this case being the one like, no, like I want more, I want to feel more.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So I love that they didn’t show typical gender roles in what his needs were. In a relationship, such great role modeling for that for men.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And another one that I loved was the scene in the sex shop.
Navigating Embarrassment and Playfulness
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: They’re going to get the obliterator, the vibrator.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And it, it was, it made me think of, of us where. We got increasingly comfortable with embarrassing situations, which I think is really important for us as individuals.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And as a couple to be able to laugh at ourselves, not take ourselves so seriously and to get comfortable with being embarrassed and those physiological reactions, because it’s, it’s not a big deal. But I’ve met so many men over the years that don’t do so much of [00:13:00] life or they resist so much out of fear of being embarrassed or fear of being judged negatively.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, and as a woman, we. We’re just also talking about this, that I have gotten so much more comfortable with being embarrassed. I used to really shut down if I was embarrassed and that was due to insecurity and low self confidence and anxiety. And you’ve trained me over the years to learn to be more comfortable with it, whether I liked it or not, but it was for the purpose of my own growth.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And I also, what I saw in that scene in the sex shop was a lot of playfulness and we’re going to do a whole episode on how to be more playful with your partner, because this is something we see a lot of partners lacking and how to develop a more playful relationship, but they utilize their emotion of maybe some nervousness or, you know, anxiety or insecurity in the sex shop.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And they use that as momentum to be playful. And they each were kind of up in the ante with [00:14:00] one another. And then she comes back with a mask on and, you know, they’re kind of like whipping at each other and
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: collar around his neck.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And then of course runs into someone he knows, but it’s, it’s a great reminder.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: We should
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: say spoiler alert. We might talk about things that might spoil the show for you if you haven’t seen it already. Yeah, well,
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: you’ve seen it by now.
Career Challenges and Public Life
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So hopefully this isn’t too much of a spoiler, but it’s, I also, I, I want to highlight something as a theme overall, because I think this plays into how the show ends is the impact of each of their careers and how this is going to impact the relationship.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I mean we see early on the difference in religion being an issue, and the challenge of could he ever marry her and what’s that going to look like. That’s the more obvious. As far as their career goes, she’s got a lot of challenge and her career is kind of based on her being single and dating. And talking about
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: her sex life,
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: talking about her sex and dating life,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: which is way more detailed than he wants to share.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: [00:15:00] Because the other thing I noticed is in the second episode, I think they, their ability to have these difficult, uncomfortable conversations, where they’re in the bar and they’re having the conversation about, you know, how much So I think the question is, is he comfortable sharing of his private life? How much is she comfortable and she’s got it all out there and just kind of beginning to dip their toe in that water to bring up this conversation about if we’d stay together, how much of our life is going to be public?
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And she’s going to have to really make decisions on her career choice. It’s just to stay in that relationship and honor his career at the same time and
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: him as a rabbi can’t marry a shiksa,
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: right? So yeah, so I’m
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: still trying to figure out what I am. If, if the female versions of shiksa, what am I?
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: You’re just a goyim. Not just a goyim. You’re a goyim.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I’m a really cute goyim.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: John and I are like a bad joke as a start, you know, a Jew and a German walk into a bar. [00:16:00] Let that be a reminder is you never actually know exactly who you’re going to fall in love with. I can guarantee you, I would have bet good money that I would have never fallen in love with a bald German.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And. I bet you could have get money, money. You never would have fallen in love with the 10 year old younger Jew.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: The odds were pretty slim since I didn’t know that many.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So stay open minded people. You don’t find your person sometimes where you least expect,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: but one of the things I wanted to get, I
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: want to harness what you just said about.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: What they’re talking about their careers. And I do love how, when Noah utilizes his own vulnerability and counseling a couple, and he had taken that insight from her vulnerability on her show. And what she’s really trying to say is like, I’m not talking about sex and dating. I’m talking about being vulnerable.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And I’m talking about my human experience and sharing that. We’ll connect you with others. And he was coming from a place of a little bit more distance [00:17:00] intellectualism counseling from a very kind of more textbook standpoint when he’s helping this couple check in at their one year anniversary. And he realized him staying a little more sterile in his approach, wasn’t helping this couple to open up.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And then he, you see the switch in him where he named what his struggles were in his past relationship and the challenges. Of not being vulnerable and his vulnerability allowed this couple sitting in front of him to really get honest and be vulnerable with one another, and then he comes back to think, Joanne, Hey, I get what your podcast is all about now.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: You’re being vulnerable and not serving your listeners. And I was vulnerable with this couple and I really helped them. And he ended up thanking her. So I love that because that’s a value you and I share in our work with our clients. And what you guys will listen on this podcast is our own humanness.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Humility, vulnerability, [00:18:00] ideally hopes you’ve helps you feel seen and heard
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: critically. I think it’s a critical point in that it helps to normalize what you as the listener are going through and feeling at times when it syncs up.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Cause when we’re all honest, I mean, we’re all going through the same shit if we’re really honest about it.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: We’re, you know, I often say, well, you were unique, your problems are not. And if we could just be honest about what we’re facing. We’d have so much more compassion for one another and ourselves. I’m not the only one.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. I get more interested in, I’m less interested in being in people’s heads and more interested in being in their hearts, you know, less what they’re thinking about more, what they’re feeling.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. But that’s where,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: that’s where the real shit is. That’s where, that’s where the authenticity is.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: The thoughts can distract us or delude us or lie to us.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Can I ask a question of how, okay, moving on then.
Family Boundaries and Prioritizing Relationships
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I, I want to bring up this topic of extended family and friends, not supporting a [00:19:00] new relationship.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: What are your thoughts go?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think one of the things that’s interesting about this show is. That they do a good job of tuning out the opinions of those around them. Because people on both sides were against the relationship and some in a big way, like his mom. Significant was. Really against it. And you know, it.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Like it’s a tough one in the sense of I’ve seen that go both ways where I’ve seen, you know, relationships fall apart and family and friends are like, yeah, I’ve been telling you this for years. You should have listened. Like. And so I, I think there’s times when those closest to us can see patterns and behaviors that might be destructive or unhelpful.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And then I think there’s times also when you find the right person and you stick with them, despite what everyone else around you [00:20:00] thinks and believes and judges, and it works out well. But even then you’ve got a, you know, pretty much a 50 percent shot of success. Right.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: There’s still uphill battles there.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I think for me, one of the things that I did see Noah grow during the course of the show is it. And I think for somewhat this is typical in many Jewish families where there tends to be some enmeshment and boundaries are hard to enforce, and it can feel, you know, a big disrespect to the elder to not honor parents wishes, and He, in the beginning, really seemed to not have a great ability to have a boundary against his, his mother.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And then there’s the episode that Joanne is over for a family Shabbat dinner, I believe it was. And the mother was just drilling into Joanne and he finally stands up to her and he just yells enough, like stop. And had he not [00:21:00] done that, I think that would have set the stage for the future because I’ve seen this example with a lot of clients in which early on in a relationship.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. One of the partners will not hold a boundary to their parent and it builds resentment for the other partner because
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: resentment can last dozens of years. Oh,
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I’ve seen it. Yeah, I’ve seen it last for, you know, from very, very early on, and it’s not easy to do, but the ability to put a protective wall around this relationship and defend it highlights.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And I think that’s what your value is of the relationship, even if it means having to compromise some of the family members opinions and, you know, maybe even how close you stay with those people.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, and ideally the relationship should be prioritized number one over your family relationships, if it’s you know assuming it’s the right relationship.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And you know there’s So, things that you can argue on that, like if you’re [00:22:00] blending a family after divorce. Yeah. Since we put our kids first and then waited until they moved out. And right now we’re number one.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think when it’s your first relationship, first marriage, Ideally you want to prioritize the couple.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: number one and we see it all too often where that doesn’t happen. And someone’s mother’s getting in the way generally and is prioritized too much, wants too much time and attention from the daughter or the son. And it creates real problems if you can’t set boundaries
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: and
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: say enough.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, and isn’t
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: healthy for us.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, and one of the things that you actually said to me really early on that, I believe Noah says something like this to Joanne as well is. Using the language of we early on when, when we were dating, I was going through something and it was about four months in and you had said to me, we’ll get through this.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: We will get through this. And I was kind of amazed at the, at the we, because it was such an early [00:23:00] acknowledgement of we’re a team here. And that was huge for me. And when Noah stands up to his mother, it’s an acknowledgement that he and Joanna are a team and together they can take on the challenges together and be stronger for it.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And, and one of the things I’ve seen is in the show that I loved is the non defensive listening and their ability to take off their armor or their mask and be open to what the other person’s saying and to hear it without that defensiveness. Cause I mean, we deal with a lot of couples and a lot of couples I would argue are stuck in their anger and hurt and like so attached to their narrative of this person hurt me.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: This person did wrong and blame. And sometimes
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: that hurt can even come from the other person’s past that they’re bringing into the present.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And, and so that was kind of refreshing to see a healthy adult relationship where. There was non defensive listening [00:24:00] where I think it was Noah, mostly who could, you know, when he made whenever he would make a mistake, seemed to cop to it quickly.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Wouldn’t really defend himself and would just say, yeah, I’m really sorry about that.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. I like when you teach clients the difference between an excuse and an explanation, an excuse is more defending an explanation. It’s, it comes across better after an apology and after validation of the person’s feelings who were hurt and then giving context for perhaps their behavior, but not excusing it away.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That’s dismissive.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: This explanation doesn’t excuse the behavior. The behavior can still be wrong and hurtful. And here’s an explanation to help understand the why,
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: right. So let’s talk about one of the big turning point episodes when. Joanne overcomes the ick.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s so
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: much in that episode.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: was pretty funny because all of a sudden he’s going to be introduced to her parents.
The Nervous Meeting with the Parents
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Unplanned. He [00:25:00] gets really nervous about it because it’s a really big deal to him to meet the parents. The parents are very, to be respected. They’re highly valued and he’s in like gym clothes. And so he runs out, he leaves and, and he gets, goes to the car.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And he gets a big bouquet of sunflowers. I don’t know what he was thinking, but I think he ran to the store and he puts on a sport jacket at the end, the back of his car over his hoodie.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so he looked ridiculous. Kind of stupid. Yeah. And so he comes in and the parents are there and the dad’s there with his gay lover and the mom’s there and, and he totally, due to his own nervousness, he fumbled the ball.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Like he just made kind of a fool of himself and he uses this terrible Italian accent. And she just like, has this look like Like this guy just see it. You can
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: just see it building well. And part of his behavior was coming from and rooted in his value of parents and family, [00:26:00] which is a good
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: value,
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: which is a great value, but she didn’t get it because she didn’t hold the same.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Value or reference of her of her own parents that he had of his sorry about our dog working there.
Cultural Differences and Missteps
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So you could really see their values difference in how much to show up on, you know, putting your best foot forward in front of parents, and we’ll get back to the second but on the flip side. He
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: we’re back on the flip side, she doesn’t really seem to over the need to over impress his parents when she goes to his house
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: and she probably should a little bit more. She
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: should have a little bit more. I mean, she should have known that prosciutto was not kosher and, you know, checked in on what gift to bring.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: They were still, they were both still trying, but anyhow, back to the ick when she has that look on her face. And the sister Morgan sees it
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: picks it up immediately,
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: immediately and Joanne was [00:27:00] dismissing it. And we know here are these series of small little what we would call maybe paper cuts in her awareness of, you know, seeing him in a non perfect light at that moment.
The Ick and Its Consequences
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And she goes out to the pool. She goes for a little break. She talks with the sister and she’s like, like almost realizing, should I got to break up with him?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. I got the ick. Yeah. And the sister’s just, it’s a hundred percent done deal in the sister’s mind.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You’re going to break up.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. There’s no way you can come back.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: he realizes, oh shit. I went too far. And as a result, he ends up coming outside, asking to talk to her. One.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So can I jump in there?
Emotional Awareness and Apologies
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: One of the things that’s impressive about him and the way the character is written is. He is. He has, he has great awareness, social awareness, emotional awareness. So he knows right away I’ve turned her off.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And he immediately comes out and says, you know what? I get that. That was embarrassing. Like it didn’t look very good. [00:28:00] And I was trying to impress your parents. I wanted them to like me. It’s really important to me. So I’m not going to apologize for what I did, because I did nothing wrong. But I understand that I you know, that might have been embarrassing to you.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah, and She softens when she sees his awareness and apology, and I believe that that was the scene in which he says to her, I think the four words that every single woman is going to want to ever hear from their partner.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: What is it?
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I can handle you.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And that, that line, I mean, it’s brilliant and beautiful and touching.
Foundations of a Mature Relationship
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It also makes me think of Charlie and Linda bloom, who Linda didn’t want to share her fears with her husband because she thought she might be judged for them. And then she finally does. And Charlie says, bring your fears to me. I’ll eat them.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Same, same idea, right? It’s, it’s the idea of I got you.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, and for context, [00:29:00] Charlie and Linda bloom were the couples therapist that we went to after our breakup and getting back together.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And to see a couple who’ve been together for 50 years, really lean into honoring each other’s fears, anxieties, nuances, insecurities, doubts, without any hesitation. To hold space for that person. And
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: it’s, it’s reassurance, right? It’s, it’s assuaging our insecurities. It’s, it’s that idea of you’re not too much for me.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You’re not needy. You have needs. Right. And, and the funny thing is we all do, we all have these idiosyncrasies and oddities and weird isms. And I think the more that we’re comfortable sharing those authentically and completely. And the more that we’re accepted for them by our partner, man, the better that relationship is.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And I, I do think that this relationship on the show is setting the [00:30:00] foundation for some real mature, evolved connection. And it’s not going to be without work because they are definitely going to have to practice staying in the zone of being vulnerable and accepting, despite what old habits arise.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Cause We know, I mean, look, we, I think we showed in our first episode, when I said to you really early on in dating, Hey, John, I accept all of you. So that was my version of Noah saying I can handle you. And yet it still took you. Quite a few years to really believe it. And that wasn’t because of what I did or didn’t do to, to prove it.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It was your own inner work to actually accept that as true.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Right.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And maybe that was a matter of you accepting all of your emotions before I could accept all of your emotions. Well, I don’t think I had ever had anyone except right.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: All my Right. It was unknown to me.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So it. [00:31:00] Like it was kind of outside of the realm of possibility at some level.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right.
Challenges of Career and Identity
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: The other thing that’s interesting is I think that, you know, looking towards the end of the show, where spoiler alert, he says, he’s going to leave being a rabbi for her.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: To, to keep the relationship going. And I think the work for them is just starting. Oh, a hundred percent. And I mean, cause he, if he truly gives up.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Is it a rabbi ship?
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, it’s a new, it’s a position of being head rabbi. Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: If, if he gives up the position of being the head rabbi, there’s a lot of strife and difficulty there to deal with in the sense of you lose your meaning, you lose meaningful work, everything you’ve
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: worked towards,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: you lose identity, you lose your purpose and that.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Might lead to some depression. Like it’s definitely going to lead to some soul searching and it’s going to put a great strain on the relationship and
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: potentially resentment.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, and I, and I do love that. We know the show is coming back for a second season because we don’t know exactly how it’s going to unfold.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I [00:32:00] mean, he could still be a rabbi and just not be a head rabbi of a congregation and not lose his entire career, but it also, I’ve seen a lot of criticism that That actually seemed out of character for how values driven he is that he would just give it up for her. And they haven’t even been together all that long.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right. And so I remember as soon as that episode ended, I turned to you and I’m like, well, we’re going to prove her love isn’t enough. Right. Or how are they going to pull through when love isn’t going to be the thing to carry them through the very real challenges are both going to have to face. Because again, we also named, she’s also going to have to shift in her career by no means as dramatic of a shift, but they’re looking at some pretty significant identity changes.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: To be able to maintain this relationship. Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And she could lose tens of millions of dollars in the podcast deal ’cause she’s not gonna have much to talk about anymore.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right, right.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah, I, so I, I think it’s, it’s interesting in terms of where they’re going with this. How I [00:33:00] don’t know. I lost my train of thought.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That’s okay.
Navigating Past Relationships
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I’ll pick up something else that I think is interesting is how much to talk about your previous relationship. And when you’re starting a new relationship, to what extent do you share the amount of details of what went on? Because she seemed largely obsessed with Rebecca.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Mm hmm. But she said that
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: she said, I’m obsessed.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I, you know, and it wasn’t from so much of a comparison standpoint. I think she just wanted more information. It
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: was like, what do you want me to tell you? And she’s like anything that’ll torture me.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right. And so
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: what it’ll do.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So what do you think was motivating her there?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Oh, I think it’s morbid curiosity.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think that there’s social comparisons. I think that there’s some feeling of not good enough. And, and she shows that later on, right. Where she’s really having some battle and some doubts over. Not being good enough for someone who’s so good. And, and that’s when she rescues the dog.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Because I, [00:34:00] and she calls her not really an ex boyfriend. It’s a friends with benefits kind of situation. He’s like, Oh no, you’re a bad person. Like I see what you’re doing. You’re calling the worst person, you know, to tell you you’re, you’re not bad, right, but you’re bad also.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right. Well, and I also loved once again, how Noah, when she admits that she looked through the box of his Rebecca stuff.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And, you know, I think that’s really powerful and this has been a challenge in our own relationship of how we’ve overcome talking about things of our past. And it’s a little bit silly at some level, and you and I have named it as kind of silly of like, why do we get jealous about someone who we didn’t even know at the time that you were with?
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Like, what, what is that?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I, well, a lot of what we’re talking about is emotion. And it’s emotional. It’s not rational. It’s not logical. Kind of like the criticism of him leaving behind his position as rabbi. And people are criticizing that saying, [00:35:00] Oh, that’s out of character. Well, isn’t love out of character.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I mean, love is almost purely emotional. It’s not rational.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It’s obsessive. It’s lustful. You know, it’s, it, we start with that limerence, the mind, right. And so you’re not thinking clearly.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So okay. This is an interesting question, actually.
Understanding Limerence
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So we love the word limerence, John, explain limerence. Cause it’s really important.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And then I have a question after that
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: limerence is the initial feeling that we have. When you first go out with someone, when you first start dating someone and you’re smitten, I wouldn’t say when you’re in love with them, cause that comes later, but limerence is the really obsessive, intense, positive feelings that you get.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You think about them all the time. have sex with them all the time. You want to be with them all the time. And you’re in this pretty intense positive emotional state. The vast majority of the time. And this can last, I don’t know, two months, three months, six months. If you’re good and you’re grateful and appreciative, you can stretch it out two, three, four years.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Ours lasted [00:36:00] actually pretty long because we didn’t get to see each other every day,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: but it, it fades also. And that’s just normal relational development. And so a lot of people, when it fades, think, Oh shit. I’m no longer in love when in fact the love hasn’t even really begun. I could argue. And so then what they do is they relationship hop looking for more RINs.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Right. Because it is probably one of the best feelings you’ll ever have
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: in life. Yeah. It’s life. It’s addictive. It’s a major dopamine dump. Right? Yeah. So do you think that they are in Limerence while making these grand decisions?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, because they’re early on. How long have they gone out by the end of the first season?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, I
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: think it’s been a couple of months. I don’t, I would, it’s been that long,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: say two months maybe.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And they’re talking about really big questions early on.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So, yeah, I would say they’re still in limerence,
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: which might, you know, cloud your ability to make a more rational, long term decision. Cause while love is emotional, we still need to be able to be grounded and rooted in reality,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: which is why limerence doesn’t work because you can’t sustain such a [00:37:00] positive, such a high intensity, positive emotion.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Right. You have to come back down to earth and that’s, it’s not a bad thing because then you can be rational and productive and do other stuff in your life too.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right.
Healthy Relationship Goals
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: There are, there are so many things about this show that I, I absolutely loved. I found myself smiling while watching it the majority of the time.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And I. I really hope that if you haven’t watched it, you get a chance to tune into it. And I, you know, I’m sure we’re going to be talking about examples from this in future episodes. Because I think we don’t have a lot of really healthy role models in TV and movies to show mature, evolved, healthy love.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Now, are they going to be without pitfalls? Absolutely not. They’re going to be, you know, they’re going to have challenges, but that’s
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: part of a healthy relationship is how you deal with the challenges. How do you deal with the uncomfortable conversations?
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right. And [00:38:00] like how he responded to her when she admitted she snooped and look in the Rebecca box.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: He was like, I get it. That makes sense to me. Like, I’m not mad at you. I had it out there and You know, it’s, it’s understanding what is the emotion driving the behavior. And if you only ever focus on behaviors, you’re going to get easily more reactive or defensive or angry. But if you get curious, and that was one of the other things is there was, there seemed to always assume positive intent with one another.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Even when she got the, my guess is she could say, wow, that was really kind of him to want to impress my parents, even though it was like too much, too fast, too far underneath. It was a real positive intent. Same thing with her intent of bringing the gift that ended up being not kosher to his parents house.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think that’s key is looking at what are your partner’s intentions versus what’s the outcome.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And we get too stuck and hung up on the outcome.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Well, I probably could have talked another, you [00:39:00] know, at least 30 to 40 minutes about nuances about this couple. And I love that this is early on in our podcast.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So we can continue to highlight what the kind of love is that we’re talking about. It’s not perfect. It’s going to be messy sometimes we’re going to have missteps, but the intention underneath it is to be real, to be honest, to be vulnerable so that we can truly accept one another. The key is in the, in the practice of your partner accepting you, you begin to accept yourself a little bit more
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: so we can heal each other when in the right relationship.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And I’ve seen that in our relationship. So thank you so much. I mean, I don’t think it’s, you don’t want to be in a unhealthy dynamic in which you’re utilizing your partner to heal your wounds, but a secure, healthy relationship inherently will begin to heal those wounds. And that’s what I see starting to happen for Joanna Noah.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: [00:40:00] And I can honestly say took us years to figure out exactly how to then integrate that awareness and believing it. But man, now that we’re there in our relationship. This is the goal.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, we’ve changed. I’ve changed an avoidant attachment style. You’ve changed an anxious attachment style to a secure attachment style.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And, and I love the idea of having an awareness and a knowledge of what a healthy relationship looks like, because I think it’s helpful for people to have the goal, the end in mind, so that they know what they’re shooting for. Because I don’t think most people out there know what a healthy relationship actually looks like.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So very quickly, before we wrap up, what are we shooting for? We’re shooting for non defensive listening. We’re shooting for non reactivity. When someone shares a vulnerable truth, we know real quick. We know from John and Julie Gottman’s research that the first 90 seconds of an argument is going to determine the relationship in six years.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So if someone comes to you with hard [00:41:00] information, if they’re vulnerable, if they share something that might’ve been difficult, your immediate response is going to dictate. The, the course of how we communicate going forward,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: we’re shooting for gentle and effective communication. We’re shooting for assuming positive intent of your partner.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: The majority of the time we’re, we’re also looking for effective ways to argue and then repair the arguments.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: We’re looking for accepting of our nuances, our isms, our idiosyncrasies, our strange little habits. That, you know, might feel weird we’re looking for validation,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: appreciation, gratitude. It’s huge.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Sexual connection, intimacy.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. So these are all highlighted in this show. And these are all of the things that we’re going to keep talking about on this podcast, not just talking about it, but teaching you, how do I get there? And when I’m stuck
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: mindset around relationship skills.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yes, absolutely.
Final Thoughts and Gratitude
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, I [00:42:00] can’t wait for season two next year.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I’m sure we’ll have a lot more things to be able to share about this couple’s future. But in the meantime, if you resonated with this episode, we would so appreciate to give it a, like a share, a review, anyone who’s in a relationship who would like to hear about more skills from two therapists who are very real in their own life.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That’s us. I’m a role model to you.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That it can actually exist
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: in real life
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: IRL,
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: it’s easier said than done, sometimes done, not done easier said than done. And it’s possible. Wow. Thanks so much, John, for giving me the relationship I’ve always dreamed of and for growing and learning and helping me heal my wounds. Because otherwise I would look at a show like this and I would say that’s not possible.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Or be jealous or angry.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Which I’m not, which we
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: have seen [00:43:00] some people
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: a hundred percent
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: get offended by it.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Well, which is
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: fascinating. So thank you. Yeah. I want to, I want
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: to come back to my gratitude and not let, make sure that didn’t get missed. So thank you for all the work that you’ve done.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And we look forward to having you tune in next week.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Right. Thanks for your attention, guys.
Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Talk to you soon.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Bye bye.