Episode #14 – The #1 Thing You Need For A Successful, Happy Relationship 

In this episode of Love Isn’t Enough, Dr. John Schinnerer and Joree Rose, LMFT, distill their combined 50 years of experience with couples to highlight the #1 trait you need for a successful, thriving, happy and safe romantic relationship. Your mindset shapes your relationship more than you might realize. Dr. John and Joree unpack the powerful research on mindset and how your beliefs about growth, change, and learning directly influence the success (or failure) of the single most important relationship in your life – your romantic relationship. Do you believe that you are “just the way you are”? Do you believe change is impossible, or too difficult, or too frightening? Does your partner believe that they should simply be “loved the way they are”? Or do you both approach challenges as opportunities to grow, both individually and together?
We explore how a growth mindset is essential when it comes to developing the emotional and relational skills that lead to a thriving and supportive partnership. From conflict repair to deeper intimacy and mind-blowing sex, we’ll show you why being open to learning, rather than needing to be right, is the real secret to long-term connection. Tune in to shift your thinking—and strengthen your love.

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

Your relationship doesn’t rise or fall on “chemistry.” It rises or falls on the beliefs you carry into conflict, repair, and growth—especially the ones you don’t realize you’re carrying.

In this episode, you’ll learn how mindset (fixed vs. growth) quietly shapes everything from the way you interpret your partner’s words to how hopeful you feel when things get hard to how effectively you argue and repair afterwards—and why that matters more than most couples think.

In this conversation, you’ll learn:

• How a fixed mindset keeps couples stuck in the same Groundhog Day arguments (“Nothing will change… so why even try?”)

• How a growth mindset creates traction—so challenges become skills to practice, not proof your relationship is doomed

• Why mindset is context-specific, and how you can be “growth-minded” in life… but secretly fixed in one painful area of your relationship

• How your expectations affect your body, not just your attitude (hunger, stress, pain, motivation—your brain is basically a pharmacy with opinions)

• How to spot your fixed-mindset tells, like “This will never change,” “They’ll never change,” or “This is just the way I am”

• A simple, relationship-saving shift: validate emotion first, explain later—so you don’t confuse “defending your intent” with actually showing up for your partner

• How to reinforce change in your partner by praising effort (not outcomes) so growth becomes repeatable and sustainable

• A powerful reframe for anxiety and fear: sometimes it’s not “anxiety”… it’s energy—and you get to decide what you do with it

• Why resistance to growth can be identity-based, and how to evolve without losing yourself (spoiler: you’re not “finding yourself,” you’re building yourself)

If you’ve ever thought, “We love each other… so why is this still so hard?” this episode helps you upgrade the operating system underneath the arguments—without requiring you to become a zen monk or pretend you don’t get annoyed by dishes, dogs, or human behavior in general.

Connect with Joree & Dr. John and Love Isn’t Enough:

• Website: www.loveisntenough.net
• Instagram: @loveisntenough33
• Subscribe to their podcast: Love Isn’t Enough
• Join our relationship Master Class series: https://loveisntenough.net/masterclass/

Connect with Joree Rose:

• Website: www.joreerose.com
• Instagram: @joreerose
• Subscribe to her podcast: Journey Forward with Joree Rose
• Join the Podcast Membership: https://joreerose.com/

journeyforwardpodcast/

Connect with Dr. John Schinnerer:

• Websites: www.GuideToSelf.com | www.TheEvolvedCaveman.com 
• Instagram: @theevolvedcaveman
• Subscribe to his podcast: The Evolved Caveman

If this conversation resonated, here are a few ways to go deeper:

• Subscribe to the Love Isn’t Enough podcast
• Leave a review—Scroll down and click Write A Review. It helps more couples find this work
• Join our Monthly Relationship Masterclass on building an emotionally safe and thriving ‘ship 
• Work with us directly in couples counseling or coaching. Email (below) to inquire about availability 

 About Your Hosts:

Dr. John Schinnerer is an executive coach out of U.C. Berkeley specializing in emotional intelligence, anger, the evolution of men, and relational health. He has worked with men and couples for over 30 years. He was an expert advisor on the academy award-winning movie, Inside Out. His online anger management class has taught over 25,000 people how to reduce their anger for a happier, calmer life.

Joree Rose, LMFT is a marriage and family therapist focused on emotional safety, attachment, and healing relationship wounds. she has focused on guiding women to greater life satisfaction and purpose and has written several books. 

Full Transcript Here – Episode 4

The #1 Trait You Need For A Happy, Thriving, Safe Romantic Relationship – Transcript

Joree Rose, LMFT: Hey, welcome back to Love Isn’t Enough. We are happy to be with you today. I am Joree Rose, licensed marriage and family therapist here with my partner in life and love, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Dr. John Schinnerer, and it is wonderful to be here with you today. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And today we’re gonna be talking about something that we believe is one of the most powerful tools you Can practice.

Joree Rose, LMFT: In all aspects of your life, which is how to have a masturbate, John, that is not what we’re talking about on this particular episode. It’s 

Dr. John Schinnerer: a very powerful tool.

Joree Rose, LMFT: It is an M word I’ll give you that. This is not 

Dr. John Schinnerer: on masturbation. Oh my God. I am so sorry. To the listener is the wrong 

Joree Rose, LMFT: memo on our show notes. Apparently John get just being an ass, which is his irreverence. And the why I, one of the reasons why I love him. No, this is not about [00:01:00] masturbation, although, do you wanna do an episode about masturbation?

Dr. John Schinnerer: ot right now. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Okay. Quick side note on masturbation. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I haven’t taken my Viagra, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: not my question. That’s if you’re taking Viagra to masturbate, then I dunno if you’re doing anything the right way. Okay. We have completely gone off the rails already. Okay. But it was fast. But what, I do actually, hold on, I’m gonna tie this all together here.

Joree Rose, LMFT: I’m gonna tie this together and we haven’t even discussed what this episode’s about yet. Masturbation with today’s episode, it’s all about mindset. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: So mental masturbation 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Sure, and you can explain what you mean by that. But I love the story of when you told a really depressed client who was suicidal to go masturbate.

Joree Rose, LMFT: So how does that relate to mindset? 

Joree Rose, LMFT: There is a segue there, isn’t it? Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. So this episode’s all about mindset and the power of mindset and mindset. The research that’s been done on in the last 20 years is absolutely jaw dropping. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And now if you wanna get back to the so I was at an A’S game and I had a client many years ago who had harm OCD, which meant he always over-focused, or I guess his he would have intrusive thoughts about harming himself or others.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And he’d wanna throw himself in front of a bus or anyway, looking for ways to kill himself. And those thoughts were coming in frequently. And so I told him look, if you have trouble with this when we’re not in session, feel free to text me or CA ll me. So one night I happened to be at NA’s game and I was like, two beers in and I’m with my friends and I get a text from him and he is I’m suicidal, I wanna kill myself.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I’m like, oh guys, I’m gonna go sit over here for a second. And so I was texting him and. I was coming up with every idea in the book that I could throw at him to get him to not hurt himself. And finally I was getting a little bit frustrated beCA use everything was like, Nope, that won’t work. Nope.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Tried it. Nope. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Hence a negative mindset. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yep. And it’s a fixed [00:03:00] mindset. It’s a mindset that nothing will help me, that nothing will change, and that I Can’t change it. And so I finally just said masturbate. He was offended and a little bit annoyed. And I saw him I think Monday, and this was like a Friday.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And he CA me in, he is like, dude, what the fuck? Masturbate. And I’m like you’re here, aren’t you? But truly masturbation gives you it’s a positive emotional boost. It’s release of endorphins and serotonin. Stress, oxytocin. Yeah. And it’s a mood changer. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: When you’re feeling super suicidal, masturbate.

Dr. John Schinnerer: That’s the story, the part of the moral of the story. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: But, okay, so we, took some of your irreverence and made it practiCA l, which it’s always a fun way to try to find the segue there. But I think it is an important tool to recognize if you have a negative mindset towards nothing’s gonna help.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Guess what? Nothing’s really [00:04:00] gonna help you. And in this episode we’re gonna talk about why that is. Such a powerful awareness to understand not just the research behind it, but how you Can shift your mindset away from not believing anything’s gonna work or you Can’t create change to not only the research that supports that, but what you Can actually do.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And we will intersperse our own relationship story as we always do, around how this is just so important for your relationship and to really take stock of what your mindset is in your relationship. Regarding growth, change, healing, and whatever might be the barriers for deeper connection. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: You want me to pick that up?

Dr. John Schinnerer: Please Pick that up. Okay. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: what is a mindset? A mindset is a choice. You choose to believe in a certain set of thoughts, ideally thoughts that we know are beneficial to us. And I would say mostly based on science. I, was gonna [00:05:00] say based on science, but I think there’s other. Mindsets and beliefs that I’ve adopted since then that are spiritual as well.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And mindsets are context dependent and that part Cannot be overstated. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Say it again. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: So mindsets are context dependent, which, what does that mean? It means that I Can have let’s go aCA demics. ‘CA use that’s where all this started. It started with CA rol Dweck’s research probably 30 years ago on fixed versus growth mindset.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so even if we think about. Mindset with regards to certain aCA demic subjects, you Can have a different mindset in history than you do in English, than you do in math. And so the example I give is when I was taking CA lculus in high school, I found it really hard and I was really struggling at it.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I, think I pulled a B minus out, which was not the usual for me. I had a fixed mindset at the time, and the fixed mindset basiCA lly is the belief that intelligence is [00:06:00] fixed. It doesn’t change, it’s non malleable. And so the problem with that is when you come up against difficult material, you tend to get a little bit anxious, maybe a little bit sad.

Dr. John Schinnerer: You think, oh, I guess this is the end of my math CA reer. I guess I’m just not smart enough to learn this stuff. And the biggest problem with it, or one of the biggest problems is. We kinda have this belief that if winning means I’m a winner, then losing means I’m a loser. And so we get stuck in this kind of slight depression and maybe a little bit of shame when we Can’t understand something.

Dr. John Schinnerer: BeCA use our belief is that if we have a fixed mindset, then effort is something put in by lesser people and that I shouldn’t have to struggle in order to learn something. That ain’t true. If it is true, then you’re just not pushing yourself hard enough. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: As you say that, it makes me think about what were some of my fixed mindsets regarding my own eduCA tion, and the first one that CA me to my mind is I’m not [00:07:00] good at multiple choice tests.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah, and the thing is, the more I believed that, the more I beCA me myself at the prophecy, that I didn’t do well on those tests, I knew I did great on essay questions and I always aced those. So was it really that I was better at essay question tests or was it a little bit being persuaded by the belief that I thought I was really good at?

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so what I needed along those lines was I needed a growth mindset. What’s a growth mindset? BasiCA lly, it’s the belief that you Can learn anything with effort and perseverance. And the difference is if I had a growth mindset about CA lculus in high school, I would’ve said, okay, yeah, this is difficult.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I’m struggling to get this. How Can I find a different way to come at this material so that I Can master it? In other words, Can I go talk to someone in the class that’s doing well? I could go talk to the teacher. I don’t know that they had internet back then, but if they had internet back then yeah. The world was all in black and white.

Dr. John Schinnerer: There’s horses and buggies. Yeah. And but you Can go to the internet, [00:08:00] you Can get a tutor. There’s different ways that you Can go about mastering the material rather than just going, oh, I guess I’m not smart enough. And here’s the thing that really blew me away about this.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So CA rol Dweck from Stanford, and this is all really. This stuff’s been out there for a while and it’s pretty popular. But CA rol started working with a group of seventh graders. And the the, amazing thing about this to me is when I was a CA l and I, that was 92 to 2000, this was taught that I intelligence was fixed, that it didn’t change.

Dr. John Schinnerer: If you’re born smart, you live smart, you die smart. If you’re born stupid, you live stupid. You die stupid. And CA rol CA me along and said I don’t think that’s quite right. She taught seventh graders. There was a control group that just had a fixed mindset about intelligence. She taught this other group of seventh graders about growth mindset and the importance of effort and perseverance and how to think about intelligence and that it’s malleable.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And then she tracked them for a year, and at the end of the year, what she found is that on [00:09:00] average, the group that she taught about the growth mindset had on average a 30 point increase in iq. Per IQ tests. That’s insane. That’s going, let’s say you have an average iq, which is a hundred, that’s two standard deviation.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So you go a hundred, 1 15, 1 30, that takes you from an average IQ to a superior IQ based on nothing than a change in how you think about intelligence. That’s wild. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: That is wild. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so that’s the, granddaddy of these mindsets, and that’s what started all this. And from there, we roll into a number of other areas beCA use to me that in and of itself is really impressive and something to shoot for.

Dr. John Schinnerer: But when you start to enter all these other areas that we were looking at, weight loss, pain management, aging, stress, then it becomes really, hard to ignore. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: One of the ways that [00:10:00] I, learned a lot about mindset is in a really fabulous book by Kelly McGonigal CA lled The Upside of Stress. And in this book, while the title is about stress, what she’s really talking about is stress is only as bad as you believe it’s bad for you.

Joree Rose, LMFT: She gives a lot of examples and insights into the mindset studies that say, Hey, stress Can actually be a motivator. It Can draw you closer to other people as you reach out for connection and you work through challenges and you Can grow from it. And a lot of that book was highlighting some of the really big studies.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Some of my favorite ones were done by Aaliyah Crumb, so let’s go to some of the other studies and I apply it beCA use someone might be interested in the studies but not know how that really relates to them. And I think the real impliCA tion is understanding where are you stuck? So as you listen to these studies, perhaps start to think about your own life, about what your thoughts are in areas that you struggle with.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So let me tee up the one with Aaliyah Crumb and then you Can take it home. So Aaliyah was a [00:11:00] D one athlete, I believe at Harvard, and she had, her mentor was Ellen Langer. And Ellen’s gonna come back into this story a little bit later, but Ellen’s a Hall of Fame psych researcher and. Aaliyah was an athlete and so she was working out, I dunno, four days a week or four hours a day.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I remember, the story goes, she went to Ellen and Ellen said something like, you know that exercise is a placebo, right? Which kind of pissed off. Aaliyah frustrated her and she was like what are you saying that I get the benefits of exercise beCA use I think I’m going to get the benefits of exercise, not beCA use I’m actually out there busting my ass four hours a day.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And Ellen was like, yeah. And so this really, it really sat wrong with her, and she, was stuck on it for a while. But the brilliant thing is that Aaliyah CA me up with an idea to test this hypothesis. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: So they did a study with overweight Hotel Ma, and they put them into a test and control group. [00:12:00] And with the test group, they told them that what they were doing in their job of being a maid.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Was considered exercise in that, pushing the CA rt down the hall, vacuuming, changing the linens, dusting all burned CA lories. And they told them to not really change anything else in their life. But this test group was given the information that what they were doing was good for them. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And according to the surgeon general, and they broke it down.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Cleaning a bathtub is 200 CA lories, vacuuming a room, 250 CA lories, changing the bed, 300 CA lories. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: You might guess the end of this outcome, but at the end of the eight week study, those who were told that what they were doing was considered exercise and therefore good for them, lost body weight, body fat, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: their hip to waist ratio shrunk.

Dr. John Schinnerer: They were more satisfied with their job and their blood pressure went down 

Joree Rose, LMFT: just simply by believing that what they were doing was good for them and would [00:13:00] benefit their health. Nothing else changed. That is fascinating to me. And as we started this episode, I was thinking to my own self where are the areas that I’m really stuck?

Joree Rose, LMFT: And I don’t have any fixed mindsets about our relationship, but I do have some pretty fixed mindsets about myself and my life right now. And one of them is a story I keep telling myself was I Can’t lose weight. And then I started laughing to myself, knowing we’re gonna talk about this study going, oh, if that’s the story I keep telling myself, I’m perpetuating the belief that I Can’t and I’m not I’m gonna have a daily little reminder of the maid study up on my fridge. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, I think that’s great. And that’s what I was talking about at the beginning, where these beliefs are context specific so you Can have them in very specific, discreet areas of your life. And one of the areas that I had one most recently in our relationship, oh wait, you 

Joree Rose, LMFT: wanna go there?

Joree Rose, LMFT: Oh, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: you don’t wanna go there? You wanna go? Okay. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Study. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Oh, there’s a bunch of other studies. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: The other LEA one. Okay. You wanna do the shake study? Okay, do that. Sorry about that. Although. It’s a cliffhanger. Now keep my mind as [00:14:00] masturbation beCA use shit. Talk about master your mind, John, what, every time you talk master your mindset.

Joree Rose, LMFT: I keep hearing the word masturbation beCA use just really put that earworm in me. So thank you very much. You’re welcome. You’re welcome. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I like to help. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I you’re, a great helper. So the other Aliyah study had to do with food as well, and it was CA lled the Shake Study. And they, again, test and control group.

Joree Rose, LMFT: They gave each group like a smoothie, essentially a health food shake. And they said to the test group. By the way, everything in here is really healthy. It’s really good for you. But just so you know, I don’t remember which group was which. I’ll just make up the answer. It’s not very filling, and you’ll likely be hungry fairly soon after you have this shake.

Joree Rose, LMFT: The other group was told the same thing. Healthy, food, healthy ingredients, but by the way, it’s actually really filling and you’re not gonna be hungry for hours. Lo and behold, those who believed it was filling we’re not hungry for hours. Those who were told they’d be [00:15:00] hungry sooner, were hungry sooner.

Joree Rose, LMFT: So it really highlights the impact of our thoughts 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And one of the things that’s amazing about that study is they did blood tests and they found that the hormone ghrelin actually increased as a result of. This mindset change. And so beCA use of, and ghrelin is the hormone that tells you how hungry you are.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so just, that’s our mind as a biochemiCA l cocktail factory creating these hormones that has an impact on our body. It’s the mind body connection, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: which is huge. I think we could have a four hour conversation simply about this area of mind body connection. It makes me think of the amazing work.

Joree Rose, LMFT: By Alyssa Epel on the Telomere Effect, which is basiCA lly that we change our body on cellular levels and Can reverse the aging process through practices like mindfulness meditation, which is again, increasing [00:16:00] the, strength of our mind to place our attention where we choose and to be non-reactive and to be present and all the things that are beneficial.

Joree Rose, LMFT: But we literally are changing our bodies on a cellular level by how we think. And I love this idea of. Thoughts being like a buffet. And thoughts are just gonna come into our mind, but we Can choose which thoughts we actually ingest. So I’ve often talked to clients about negative thoughts being literally like junk food for your body.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Like you are choosing to ingest this junk food knowing it’s not good for you by believing these negative thoughts. Whereas if it’s a buffet, choose the thoughts that are gonna serve you. Choose the healthier options. Okay, sure. Have a little bit of cookies or just a donut hole. The more healthy thoughts you put into your body, you are literally injust, ingesting a healthy way of being.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so let me go to another area here, which is one that was near and dear to my heart, which is pain management. Yes. And so there was a, an Italian doctor a few years ago, [00:17:00] Fabrizio Benedetti that was doing thoracic surgery. And thoracic surgery is very intrusive and very painful to recover from. And the patients get morphine to help with the pain.

Dr. John Schinnerer: He split the recovering patients up into two groups. There was a control group and experimental group. The control group got their morphine, I think it was like every four hours, just on the clock from a pump. So they didn’t know that the morphine was getting administered into their iv. It just happened automatiCA lly.

Dr. John Schinnerer: The other group, the doctor would come into their room where they were recovering. He would say, Hey, how you doing? Like I got some morphine here. This should help with your pain. And he would do an injection of morphine into their iv. So there was no other difference about when it happened or the dosage exactly the same.

Dr. John Schinnerer: The only difference was in how much each patient expected to feel relief. What they found is that the [00:18:00] patients who had the doctor come in and do the injection and make make a big deal of, Hey, I’m giving you your morphine now had a 34% decrease in pain. I will take a 34% decrease in pain all day long.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And what we’re talking about here is basiCA lly the placebo effect and. I’ll take the placebo effect all day long. But the thing about it is it really highlights the idea of our brains are incredibly powerful and we are just scratching the surface if we’re doing that. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: So bringing it back to relationships and everyday life, we see a lot of clients and couples who believe things Can never get better.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And unfortunately, the more they believe that they’re likely gonna get stuck in not just that belief, but in the expectation of that. And it will be the outcome that things are not gonna change. And John and I experienced this in our own relationship for the first [00:19:00] iteration, the first seven years in which we got stuck in some patterns that both of us thought, this Can never change.

Joree Rose, LMFT: You wanna share a little bit about what your stuck place was? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And so I think. Where I got stuck was when we would get in disagreement and I would go to shame and I would have thoughts like, oh, she’d be better off without me, or I’m just no good at this relationship thing. And this was a pattern that I’ve had 50 plus years, and I had the thought of, I don’t think I Can ever get this to change.

Dr. John Schinnerer: It’s always been with me. And as soon as I had that realization, I was like, oh shit. That’s a fixed mindset. If I wanna change this, that’s the first thing I gotta go after, is believing that change is possible. And so I chose to believe that change was possible and then I started looking at different ways to go after that and to heal it.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And ultimately what I did is I went to mushrooms. Mushrooms were helpful and [00:20:00] internal family systems was helpful as well to go talk to that five-year-old version of me, that was the part of me that was going to shame. As a self-protective strategy, but unless come up with that awareness of, oh, I’m, this is a fixed mindset here and I need to change the fixed mindset, you’re stuck.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And where I see the fixed mindset most is in clients of mine that are depressed. And I’ve had clients tell me, Nope, that won’t work. Nope won’t help me. Nope. Tried that. Nope. That’ll work for other people. And they’re so invested in their pain and misery and their narrative. This is never gonna change that.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Guess what? Nothing changes. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: and the, this is there’s an opposite or a dark side cousin of placebo, which is no sibo, and the no SIBO effect is, if I don’t believe something’s gonna help me, it ain’t gonna help me. And I remember telling this to a very depressed client one time, and he was like, [00:21:00] oh my God.

Dr. John Schinnerer: That’s why Advil’s never helped me, beCA use I never thought it was going to, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: When clients come to us and they say, how do I know if this is the right person for me to be in relationship with, or stay with, or choose in at the beginning of relationship? What is the one thing that you would give advice towards of whether or not a relationship is worth sticking it out for?

Joree Rose, LMFT: And the immediate answer that we give is, are they open-minded to growth and mindset in relationship? BeCA use I, that used to. Really frustrate me. ‘CA use I saw that you believed in the power of mindset and it was frustrating beCA use it wasn’t being applied in the particular areas in which we would get stuck.

Dr. John Schinnerer: To me it was the one area. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And so it’s not just a growth mindset period. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: It truly is a growth mindset in relationship beCA use that’s gonna require a lot more [00:22:00] vulnerability of being able to look at ourselves, our patterns, our past, our wiring, perhaps our family of origin, dynamics of what led us to the beliefs about ourselves, about relationship, about love, about marriage, whatever it might be.

Joree Rose, LMFT: That introspection or curiosity Can be painful, Can be hard, Can be confronting. So we’ve gotta have some tools in place, self-compassion, loving kindness, acceptance to be able to have that introspection, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: humility so that we Can look at ourselves with without the belief that we know everything.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And, yeah, so I think even as I said the context specificity of these mindsets is really critiCA l beCA use I thought I had a growth mindset about relationships, and I think I did, I don’t know, 95% of things in our relationship. I believed I could change, but there was a specific area that was not true, and I had to unearth that and then go after it.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Did you see any [00:23:00] really fixed mindsets of mine? In our relationship, beCA use I think we all talk about that example for you and I’m just curious if anything comes to top of mind of, where. Is that 

Dr. John Schinnerer: a trick question? 

Joree Rose, LMFT: No. It’s really not a trick question. I 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I’m hoping to sleep in the same bed tonight.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Don’t worry. Let me know. So I’m 

Dr. John Schinnerer: gonna take the fifth. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I’m being serious. I think. I had some fixed lack of awareness around my contribution to some of our dynamics, but I don’t know that was a negative mindset per se. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah I, think some of the things that come to mind I, don’t know if there were a lack of self-awareness or a fixed mindset or both.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I don’t know that we wanna spend the time. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Show my own humility around where I would get stuck in those relationship dynamics. But I do know that I did not believe that some of these things could change. [00:24:00] Yeah. So whether it was my own pattern or not, I felt pretty connected to that idea, and I know that I’ve seen that in some of the ways I have believed about other people.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Oh, they’re never gonna change. So it’s interesting beCA use even if they did make change and I was attached to the belief they could never change, would that prevent me from seeing growth and change in somebody else? So it’s not even just romantic partnerships we’re talking about, but just relationships in general.

Joree Rose, LMFT: One of the areas this makes me think about is when working with clients who are young parents who. Are saying, oh, my kid is just like my, husband or my kid is just like my mother-in-law, or just, or my ex. Maybe if they’re young parents, they don’t, yeah. Have too many exes.

Joree Rose, LMFT: But the idea being that they’re over attaching patterns and identity to someone they don’t like, they might continue to see that child through that lens, and they might be missing [00:25:00] opportunities to notice when they’re not being like that person or. They get overattached to that belief system. So I, think this is one of the general ideas we’re talking about is how to not get so overattached to a belief system that it may be inhibiting you from connection, from true awareness or being able to grow and create transformation and change.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And, I think it’s not that hard to spot the areas in which you have a fixed mindset. I think they’re the areas that you chroniCA lly or constantly get stuck in. I think they’re the areas where you have the thought of this is never gonna change. I Can’t change this. And whenever you hear those kind of thoughts and that’s where I think the mindfulness piece becomes important here beCA use it, it builds self-awareness and we need to be more aware of our thoughts as well as our feelings and values and so on.

Dr. John Schinnerer: But I, I think that. I was really proud of myself when I realized, oh my God, like I’ve got a fixed [00:26:00] mindset here and I gotta go after that. And the first the first step is awareness. The second step is making the conscious choice over and over again of having a growth mindset about this particular area of difficulty.

Joree Rose, LMFT: You go into some detail, ‘CA use that still sounds a little conceptual. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Maybe more tactiCA l of how did you actually do that? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: It was funny beCA use I think the breakup that we had was the motivation that I needed to really face some of this stuff. And, I think that’s true for a lot of us, right?

Dr. John Schinnerer: That sometimes a larger fear is needed to get past a lesser fear. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And my larger fear was losing you forever. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: For those who are newer to the podCA st, we’ve been together for almost 10 years, and about three years ago went through a short but very painful breakout and we had to shatter our old [00:27:00] framework, and a lot of that old framework was mindsets and wounds and sensitivities and insecurities, and some traumas from previous relationships in childhood that prevented us from fully leaning into safety and vulnerability in this relationship.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Sometimes we need that breakdown to get to the breakthrough, but what I love that it did for us and the opportunity is for you, not you, John, you the listener, is the post-traumatic growth, right? That we love this idea that you Can take something really hard and rather be stuck in it or in post-traumatic stress disorder, that it’s a constant reminder and trigger is gonna lead to more problems.

Joree Rose, LMFT: But that this challenge, this trauma for us, which was really painful, gave us the opportunity to grow and say, why did this happen? What am I here to learn from this? And what’s the deeper message that I’m supposed to be gaining right now? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And, so tactiCA lly I, think that again, first step is [00:28:00] awareness.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Second step is. Change your mind and make the choice of, I Can change this. I just have not been trying in the right way. And then I started looking at how what are some new ways that I Can go at this? What are some ways that I haven’t tried before? And I remember one of the things I did is I went down, I was driving down to Southern CA lifornia by myself and listening to No Bad Parts by Dick Schwartz, the founder of Internal Family Systems Theory.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And. Was just doing the exercises as I was driving down. So I had given it a lot of thought and was really thinking about how Can I get this done? And I was talking to some people that were knowledgeable about changing some deep seated behaviors and beliefs and so I, I think those were really helpful when you ball them all together that I started to see.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Wow, maybe change is possible. And then started to see some change in behaviors and it wasn’t perfect. When you’re dealing with behaviors at [00:29:00] this level of depth, it’s never gonna be perfect. Like you’re gonna have, think of a jagged mountain side, right? You’re gonna have progress, and then you’re gonna backslide a little bit and then you’re gonna have more progress, and then you’re gonna backslide a little bit.

Dr. John Schinnerer: That’s always what happens when you’re dealing with emotional content that I haven’t seen an exception to that. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: No. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And for me, as I observed you doing that, one of the best ways I could support you in that growth was to acknowledge it and validate anytime I saw the slightest bit towards that growth and change, beCA use this is an area that as couples, I Can’t stress enough validate this behaviors you wish to continue to see.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Validate even the smallest little bit of change that you see. BeCA use if you Can support your partner in that, that you’re paying attention, you’re being aware, you appreciate it, you’re grateful for it, that you see the work your partner’s doing, they’ll be much more likely to wanna continue that. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And along those lines, and this is a, subtle [00:30:00] difference, but I think it’s an important one, we have to change our mindset about we’re so ingrained to focus on outcome.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Instead, I would highly suggest focusing on effort. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: BeCA use if you Can encourage the effort of your spouse, of your child, of your friend, man, that’s the way to go. BeCA use I Can put in effort and still not get the outcome I desire. I Can watch everything I eat and still gain weight. I Can put in a bunch of emotional work and still fall victim to shame.

Dr. John Schinnerer: You want to encourage the effort beCA use if they keep trying, they will eventually get it. If you undermine the effort, you’re done. And I see it all the time. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: we we’ve talked about this before, of couples who don’t practice gratitude and appreciation for their partner. And [00:31:00] that’s, it’s such an easy thing to do, and what we hear a lot from couples is why should I thank them for what they’re supposed to be doing?

Joree Rose, LMFT: And I don’t know anyone who doesn’t ever tire of hearing you’re doing well at something. Thank you for that. Thank you for taking out the garbage. Thank you for feeding the dog. It might be minor, but what you’re doing is it’s saying, I, I’m paying attention. I see the effort you’re doing towards contributing to the, family, the house, the relationship, and I wanna support you.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Continuing to do the work that you’re doing. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Let, lemme give you, Can I give an example please? There’s a concrete example that just CA me to mind. As many of I’ve had some eye difficulties and I’ve been all or somewhat or blind in my left eye for the last six months, which makes seeing things difficult.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Depth perception is not there. And I like to try and help out. I like to do my part around the house to help jury out. Just to do my part. And there was a night [00:32:00] where I was doing the dishes after she cooked, which I don’t mind doing at all ‘CA use she’s a great cook. But I, there was a clear glass bottle that was back on the sink a little bit, and I couldn’t I, didn’t see it.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I reached for something and I knocked the bottle and it went flying into the other part of the sink and shattered a lake ette. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: A new lake set dish and. I was just like, oh, and Jory was great and she didn’t bat an eye. She was supportive. She was understanding really easy there for her to get annoyed or upset or disgusted or anything.

Dr. John Schinnerer: But that’s her focusing on my effort over the outcome beCA use I’m trying, with a disability. If you shoot me down for my effort, then [00:33:00] she’s doing the dishes and cooking. And that’s not what we want. So I, I say that as just an example of how to focus on effort. It means you’ve gotta have some emotional management skills to realize he’s trying.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Let me still be supportive, even though one of my favorite dishes just got broken. Which is a bummer. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: It was a bummer and it was also not intentional. It was not your fault. I have great compassion for the work that you do that you aren’t seeing very well. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And the, other thing I wanna talk about here is we often say to clients ‘CA use our thoughts are gonna come into our head, thoughts are automatic.

Joree Rose, LMFT: We’re gonna have 50 to 70,000 thoughts a day. We’ve got a negativity bias, or likely gonna be more focused on the negative. But if we attach onto and believe those thoughts that are rooted in that negativity bias, that’s not gonna serve us. So we always say this phrase of choose the interpretation that serves you best.

Joree Rose, LMFT: If I choose the interpretation of, wow, John was [00:34:00] completely CA reless and did not CA re. I thought my beautiful purple ombre la crew was say oval shaped dish. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: It’s a lot of detail. It 

Joree Rose, LMFT: was. It was just it was really pretty. It was. But if I choose to believe that he was CA reless in not paying attention and didn’t CA re of my respect for the things that I have that I like.

Joree Rose, LMFT: That would make me pissed and see things through a negative lens and perhaps get reactive or dismissive to other future attempts to help, or the interpretation as I really appreciate, he did the dishes and this was an accident. Which, and which thought there is gonna serve the relationship better.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And that is a mindset shift to turn towards a thought that serves you best. That’s a choice. I Can choose that thought every time. That doesn’t mean I Can’t get annoyed about something. And that’s the difference here, right? I Can still say that’s a bummer and you didn’t do that on purpose. It’s not a big deal.

Dr. John Schinnerer: It also means that you might have the thought in the front end immediately of, oh my God, I Can’t believe he just broke my dish. And, [00:35:00] but you don’t speak that. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And I don’t dwell there. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And that, that interpretation of intention is so critiCA l. And I, am doing anger management work for many years. I teach that, right?

Dr. John Schinnerer: That if you interpret something as being done on purpose to screw you, to hurt you, that will incite anger versus, oh, it was an accident, or, oh, I don’t think they really meant it. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Another thing that I think is a really important thing to address regarding mindset shift in relationship. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Or any individual work that you’re doing on your own, it begs the question of why would I not want to change and grow?

Joree Rose, LMFT: And I see this a lot. I something that I’ve faced in myself if I’ve gone through a lot of transformation over the past 10, 15 years, but we get over attached to our identity and sometimes our suffering or our trauma, and it Can be hard to let go of that narrative of [00:36:00] ourselves. The question is if I am not fill in the blank whether it’s a victim of trauma, whether it’s if you’ve been hurt before, you know whether it’s healing, family of origin, dynamics, it’s who am I without that story and that fear of not knowing who you are without that story Can inherently be the thing to prevent you from changing that story.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And the beauty is. You. It’s not about finding yourself. You get to create yourself. And I’ve seen a lot of my clients over the years really resistant to change beCA use it means entering into an unknown. And if we’re looking at change in relationship, I Can see, and I’m gonna generalize here, but some men, sorry, guys who are not wanting to grow and change towards being more available, present emotionally, where partners, beCA use they may feel that requires more expectation on them.

Joree Rose, LMFT: That might and the [00:37:00] front end seem like that feels like a lot. I just wanna be let off the hook and not CA re. If we go down that line of being so attached to not creating change at what cost to someone you love. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And the other problem with that is the only thing that’s constant in life is change.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so if you are resisting change, if you are resisting reality as it is, you are setting yourself up for misery. I guarantee it. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And I’ve seen some of this in some of the adolescent clients you’ve had over the years who let’s say have been struggling in getting through college and it’s like a fear of success almost.

Joree Rose, LMFT: So they might get through four fifths of a semester and then towards the end the, all the rails come off and they just fail. And don’t pass. And I’m so curious about that idea beCA use I, believe it’s a fear to some extent, unconscious probably of, if I [00:38:00] succeed at this, oh shit, I might have to succeed at the next thing.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And it’s interesting also, I think fear of success and fear of failure are two sides of the same coin. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: They’re really hard to disentangle. It’s all fear-based. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: It’s all fear-based, which again, we Can choose to look at through a different lens. I love probably one of the things I, teach the most and overemphasize every time I say it with clients and even in everyday life is the word and and the, and is the ability to believe in two truths at once. It’s a paradox that we are all paradox and when we Can say, this is hard and I Can still try. This is hard and I’m still doing the work. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I’m sorry I had a joke. Come to me. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Okay. Are you gonna share? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: So you need to get a PhD so then we Can be a paradox.

Joree Rose, LMFT: The, and I’m not sure that was that funny. We’re a 

Dr. John Schinnerer: paradox. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Oh, a paradox. [00:39:00] 

Dr. John Schinnerer: It was a dad though. It’s almost Father’s Day. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I’m allowed. Okay. I’ll give it to you a. I don’t know. It was worth interrupt. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: It was terrible, but it was 

Joree Rose, LMFT: interrupting my train of thought. So when we are looking at where you’re stuck in relationship, I invite you to consider to what extent, maybe even on a sCA le of one to 10, do you believe that change in this area is possible?

Joree Rose, LMFT: And if you really don’t believe it is question yourself, challenge that. Now here’s a really sticky point, and I think it’s worth saying beCA use we’re talking about growth and change in your mindset towards relationships. Sometimes we work with couples or I work with women who believe that change couldn’t happen, who have been wanting the relationship to grow and change, or they’re a partner to grow and change, and then they get to this secret unhappy but kind of misery point, which is [00:40:00] confusing as well.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Which is to say, even if he did change, now I don’t wanna be in that relationship beCA use oftentimes what we see happen is there’s hope. There’s hope. There’s hope that has let down. And even though they might want that change to occur, they’ve now built enough resentment where they actually even wanna be in that relationship, even if the change happened.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And this is quite simply important to name. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, I think that’s somewhat rare. It’s 

Dr. John Schinnerer: But we have seen it and I think that’s it, if we had, if they had a growth mindset earlier on, they wouldn’t be in this prediCA ment Exactly beCA use it’s, if they had a growth mindset about relationship skills, they could have learned how to have, how to argue effectively.

Dr. John Schinnerer: They could have learned how to repair effectively, and then they wouldn’t have this huge accumulation of resentments over many years. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. May I share one of my favorite mindset shifts? Stories Sure. That I have been really powerful for me [00:41:00] and one that I talk to my clients a lot about. I believe we have great power in language and how we name something matters beCA use language is gonna help us with interpretation and how we relate to whatever’s arising.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And many years ago I was at a women’s conference and there was a motivational speaker on stage, about 200 women in the audience. And she got on stage and she said, okay, I’m gonna pick. Someone’s name at random out of a hat, and if I choose your name, I’m gonna invite you to come up on stage and talk for two minutes and you Can choose whatever you talk about.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And you heard a collective groan through the audience, and she says, wow. I, heard what you all just did this collective sigh of fear setting in. And she says, Can you just describe to me what it is that you’re feeling right now? People just started chatting on answers.

Joree Rose, LMFT: My heart is racing. I’m beginning to get sweaty. My palms are feeling a little clammy, I’m getting anxious. And people [00:42:00] were just describing these symptoms really, of anxiety. And what she said was everything you just described was really just energy moving through your body. And you have been in a habit of naming that energy as anxiety.

Joree Rose, LMFT: If you believe it to be anxiety, it’s gonna stop you. It’s gonna shut you down. She said, what if you simply just named it as energy and you use that energy and plugged it in and were able to go forward with that. And you heard people oh look around. Wow that’s a really great perspective to think about.

Joree Rose, LMFT: So then she goes on to say, so by the way, I’m actually not gonna choose someone’s name at random out of a hat. However, if you decide to plug in your energy and you want to get on stage and talk for two minutes, then raise your hand and to support you in this, we will give you a standing ovation on the way up and a standing ovation on the way down.

Joree Rose, LMFT: I was someone who at that [00:43:00] time had not been really any public speaking. I was insecure, I was anxious, but I thought I’m done with that narrative about myself. So I threw my hand up in the air and she CA lled on me. And I walked up on stage. I got a standing ovation by 200 women. I had no idea what the hell I was gonna talk about.

Joree Rose, LMFT: I still don’t really know what I did talk about. As I look back on that memory, I got a standing ovation as I walked off, and it was probably one of the biggest mindset shifts I’ve had in not only how I labeled what I was experiencing, but how I believed in my own CA pabilities. That I think was a small but powerful CA talyst into believing I Can be okay if I chose to get divorced, and this was over 10 years ago beCA use I used to believe the world was a sCA ry place.

Joree Rose, LMFT: It’s how I was raised, it was the worldview. And if I continue to believe the world was a sCA ry place, I would not have been able to access courage to create change. So I had to make the mindset shift [00:44:00] that the future isn’t sCA ry. The future is where a possibility resides, and now we’re here together.

Joree Rose, LMFT: BeCA use I made that change, and that is the complete opposite worldview I had for the majority of my life prior. And that’s an example of a mindset shift towards growth, towards letting go of an old narrative. It took a lot of working courage to enact that and not just believe it. But I, hope that’s a inspiring story of be really mindful of how you name things in your own mind, how you relate to them.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Where are you overattached to the future of the unknown? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I think that’s a great place to wrap things up. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: So listen, if you have enjoyed this, if this has been meaningful to you or helpful to you, we really need you to leave a rating on Apple and share it with someone else that you think would find it, that would find it beneficial.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And if you’re hearing this and say, oh, I need this, but how do I do that? [00:45:00] We invite you to join our masterclass series. We have a year long masterclass series in which you Can sign up for the whole year, even if it’s midway through. Get access to previous classes, and if you do the whole year, you get a bonus coaching session with us.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Or you Can simply look on, the online and sign up for a class that is most inspiring to what your needs are. You Can find that link in the show notes if that sounds interesting to you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And also be sure to subscribe to the podCA st so you don’t miss any episodes. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Thank you guys so much for tuning in.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Hopefully you learned one valuable takeaway around the power of mindset and how to work towards creating the change you seek in your life and in your relationship.