How To Stay Connected – Podcast #3

In the third episode, top couples counselors, Dr. John Schinnerer and Joree Rose, LMFT, talk about how couples can navigate staying connected and how to get along when they have differences in their values or beliefs, such as between a Democrat and a Republican. Research shows that 67% of relationship challenges are not solvable, so then what? Not agreeing does not have to be a deal breaker; the key is to understand that we are not trying to convince our partners to agree with us, but to learn the tools to stay respectful when they don’t. This may feel counterintuitive, but when couples continue to fight the same fight, they will usually end up with the same outcome: disconnected, annoyed and resentful. In this episode, Joree & John, couples counselors, share examples of many common issues that couples deal with, including political differences, and offer realistic and practical ways to move through them, rather than moving apart.

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How To Stay Connected – Episode 3 Transcript

Introduction and Episode Overview

Dr. John Schinnerer: Hey, devoted listener, this is John and Joree and we are back with another episode of Love Isn’t Enough. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Hello. We’re so glad you tuned in today. I think this conversation is going to be really valuable because we’re going to be talking about how to manage. Unresolvable differences or conflicts within your relationship.

Understanding Unresolvable Conflicts

Dr. John Schinnerer: So what are unresolvable conflicts? Unresolvable conflicts are the vast majority of things that you fight about in your relationship. In fact, research from the Gottman’s shows, it’s about two thirds of the stuff that you fight about are actually, there’s no resolution. You can’t agree on how to deal with it.

Joree Rose, LMFT: That is an astounding percentage to me. Every time I say that to a client, every time we talk about that. Literally two thirds of the issue you and your partner are struggling over doesn’t have a fix to make it better for both of you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And think about that. Like that’s huge 67%. So that means we’re just fighting about stuff or disagreeing about stuff or arguing about things.

That we’re never going to come to an agreement until we just keep fighting about it. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: So even as we’re starting off this conversation, I invite you to just pay attention to begin to increase your awareness and notice, huh, what are the areas in my life that I keep fighting with my partner about? That is never actually going to change.

And even that awareness in and of itself of some of those differences can start to be the thing to lead you to greater resolution because you realize maybe I can set this down and not have to continue to stay in a battle mode or a righteous of I’m right. You’re wrong because of our differences. Yeah.

Common Areas of Conflict

Dr. John Schinnerer: And just a few examples. I mean, we’re going to jump off into the deep end on into politics here in just a minute. Other ones are, how do we spend our free time? Do you want to go out or do you want to stay in? How do we raise the kids? How do we spend money? And, and these are typical or pretty classic areas of conflict.

And we usually have complimentary styles. Like one person is a free spender, doesn’t want to budget. The other one is very tight and thrifty. Well, 

Personal Anecdotes and Examples

Joree Rose, LMFT: and I think this really speaks to early on in relationship were attracted to qualities that might compliment what we lack or what we don’t really have very much of.

And what is it you always say, John, you always talk in a really good way about this, of how the things that. Early on are the things that excite us 

Dr. John Schinnerer: to each other are the things that annoy us the very same things that annoy the shit out of us later. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Okay. What was something you were attracted to me that then became annoying?

Dr. John Schinnerer: Attention to detail. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Okay. Give an example, please. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, actually I can’t really think of how it was attractive, but I can think how it was annoying.

Joree Rose, LMFT: You totally failed the question. That wasn’t my question. Okay. Maybe perhaps I, I got an answer for you. Okay. I’m going to, I’m going to answer for him. I think perhaps how organized I was. And maybe like had some cleanliness and organization in my home was like, Oh, that, that’s a really nice thing. That probably would, you know, help me find things better or not feel so cluttered.

And then it became, Oh shit, she’s going to want me to be like, I don’t know, I’m could be teasing. But is that something? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Because I think like your house is Immaculate, which I love, and I enjoy the orderliness of it. And then, you know, when I got further into it, it’s like, oh my gosh, there’s all these rules around how to keep things clean, like crumbs on the counter and what, which part of the sink you wanna crumbs are the er, my 

Joree Rose, LMFT: existence 

Dr. John Schinnerer: and, you know, and, and how to put pillows on the bed.

And, and so there was. There was these, these rules that you had, as I called them, that became a little constrictive to me. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Okay, that was a fear of us living together, and now that we live together, how are my strict rules? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I’m much more in tune with them, and I’m much more accepting of them. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. Well, and I think it helps create a good environment for the both of us.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I think we’ve leaned into it on both parts or both sides, right? I think you’re accepting that I’m not as cleanly as you. I’m not as organized. I’m not as neat. And I try really hard to be organized. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And I accept that you are who you are. And I appreciate when you turn towards fulfilling my needs of wiping up crumbs or the hair you shave off your face in the.

Bathroom sink. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And part of it is that like, I don’t see detail really well because my eyes are, they’ve been through a lot of trauma and damage. And so that was part of it, which was interesting. I remember sharing that with a, with a client and he went home and shared that with his partner and the partner immediately was like, Oh yeah, weaponized incompetence.

And I was like, wow, that’s harsh. Like, she doesn’t even know me and she’s judging me. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Right. Well, I think. Okay. 

Navigating Differences in Relationships

Joree Rose, LMFT: So we often find so many couples resonate with the small details of this frustrations people have and the kitchen crumbs. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Wait, loading the dishes in the dishwasher. I was going to get there. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Hold on.

We’ll get there. And then we’re going to get back to the deeper, harder stuff. But I think it’s easy to start talking about the lighter stuff like crumbs or dishwasher. But the crumbs is a really good one, because if the conflict is I, I, I need a cleaner kitchen to feel more organized, but also that organization makes me feel less anxious and then refer more productive.

It’s not just that I’m being annoyingly clean because It’s just being annoying. I actually feel like my nervous system is more regulated when my environment is calmer around me. And that includes less crumbs on the kitchen counter. And I recognize your limitations in your eyesight. If I were to dismiss that as what was it, what you just said, weaponized incompetence.

If I were to dismiss that as a real valid reason and truth of your challenges to seeing all the crumbs. I would stay annoyed and angry. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, and that’s what’s interesting to me. I always like saying, and actually my daughter parroted this line back to me recently. She was all excited. She shared this with her psychology professor at UC Santa Cruz, which I was quite proud of, but she was like, you know, you always told me pick the interpretation that serves you best.

And it’s really fascinating to me. Like in that example of, if you understand that I’m doing my best and I just can’t see as well as I would like that interpretation serves you better in terms of how much it’s going to. Yeah. Trigger annoyance in you, whereas this other woman’s interpretation of, Oh my God, that’s weaponized incompetence, which is an interpretation of he’s doing it on purpose.

He’s purposefully trying to get out of work by acting stupid or not knowing that interpretation is going to fuel anger, resentment, and annoyance 

Joree Rose, LMFT: a hundred percent. So when I can honor and accept your eyesight limitations as the reason why all the crumbs or the hair on the bathroom sink is not going to be picked up.

I not only can accept it. I have compassion for it. And therefore it’s not a conflict. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, that’s a, that’s a rough one that the shaving, my whiskers, when I trim my beard, they go all over the place. And so I try and clean them up, but they’re just. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, and I get that they’re hard for you to see. And I also have a higher degree of desire.

To get them gone. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I think, you know, I’m doing my best. You are 

Joree Rose, LMFT: doing your best. And that’s all we can ask. And so like, I think this is a good example of some of those differences that if I continue to nitpick what you weren’t doing versus the effort I saw that you are doing, we would stay in constant conflict and most couples fight about the stupidest 

Dr. John Schinnerer: little shit.

Effort and Appreciation in Relationships

Dr. John Schinnerer: It, it always frustrates me when we’re working with couples, because one of the things we want them to do is encourage the effort that your partner’s putting forth. And I would say most people in relationship are putting forth effort much of the time. Like we’re not trying to disappoint or annoy or offend the other person.

And 

Joree Rose, LMFT: if you are, own up to that and do better. Yeah, well that’s a totally 

Dr. John Schinnerer: different conversation, but you know, it’s frustrating because we got to reward the behaviors we want to see more of. So if you’re putting forth effort towards a good end, a positive end. And you’re not quite getting there, but you’re making progress.

Damn reward the effort over and over and over. Cause that’s how we make change. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Right. 

The Dishwasher Debate

Joree Rose, LMFT: So let’s go back to the dishwasher. One of our favorites that, you know, always resonates. So you tell your dishwasher version of the story. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Okay. So when we first started going out, you, you’re an amazing cook. You 

Joree Rose, LMFT: thank you 

Dr. John Schinnerer: cook.

It’s one of many things that I’m really, really grateful about of, of your talents and skills. Thank 

Joree Rose, LMFT: you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And it’s something I didn’t really have much in my life prior to you. And I’m, so anyway, it’s, it’s amazing. And so I want to do my part. I want to, if you’re going to cook, I should clean up to me, right?

That seems fair and 

Joree Rose, LMFT: reasonable. I appreciate that. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so I would, you know, Clean, clear the dishes and clean the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and, and, and 

Joree Rose, LMFT: hold on, John, I give you permission to embarrass me as much as possible in sharing the exact degree of commentary I would have. So you, you kind of highlighted one little piece of it, but like, just go in, go all in.

I can handle it. I’m good. I can handle this. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I’m just getting started. I know. So I would put the dishes in the dishwasher and this was again, early on. And then you would very quickly after me. Start to reorganize the dishes in the dishwasher. Mm hmm. And my thought is if I’m doing the work to put the dishes in the dishwasher and you’re coming behind me and Redoing the work that I just did.

Why don’t you just do the dishes right because we’re actually doing the work twice now, right? And and so that was a little bit frustrating to me because to me it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference How the dishes are put in the dishwasher. That’s what the dishwasher is for. It sprays water all over the place And so, and then it rinses the dishes and then the dishes get clean.

And I know that you see it differently. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I do. And 

Dr. John Schinnerer: then the other part is that there was an addition, there was a conversation that we had, I, this was probably a couple of years in where I was, the girls were here and we were cleaning up and you were sitting down after you’d cooked and we, we brought up, you know, what is doing the dishes mean to you?

You might’ve brought this up because I think you had a different definition of what dishes. Was to you than to the rest of humanity. And so, so you explained that doing the dishes meant not only clearing the dishes and cleaning the dishes and putting them in the dishwasher, but also taking the Windex out and Windexing every fucking counter in the, in the house, well, at least the kitchen.

And, and so we were all kind of laughing and giving you a hard time, like that’s not doing the dishes. That’s, that’s doing the dishes and wiping down the counters 

Joree Rose, LMFT: and cleaning up. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And, and so, you know, however, to accommodate Your needs. We, we started doing that. Right. And, and so that was just a little bit of.

Joree Rose, LMFT: I didn’t even realize the extent I was over attached to how I needed things. So look, and you brought up one little sentence earlier. You haven’t brought up again. I’m going to go back to it as I would sit and watch you do the dishes. You would think that me watching my beloved, who was so grateful for my cooking and so appreciative of what.

Dr. John Schinnerer: But as 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I would sit at the kitchen counter and watch this handsome man of mine clean up, my nervous system started to bubble because of the stupid ways I was attached to how I wanted things done. Including John, you know, the kitchen sponge is full of germs. And when you rest it on the counter in between the things you’re cleaning, that really bothers me.

Or, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: or when I put things upside down to the counter, the 

Joree Rose, LMFT: salad spinner that is now upside down. So the surface area condensations trapped inside, I only 

Dr. John Schinnerer: temporarily. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I, something about it just fucking, if 

Dr. John Schinnerer: we look back to this whole model that we have for, for couples work and we look at, you know, doing the relational work versus doing 

Joree Rose, LMFT: we’re doing therapy on joy right now.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Who do you think we’re in right now? 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Oh, this is a jury issue, not a John issue. Thank you. Okay. The jury issue there, as I talk about Open third person. I don’t know. Dr. John helped me figure out what was my issue. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Obviously it’s anal retentiveness. According to Freud, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I don’t like, you know, John only sometimes sorry, TMI.

I 

Dr. John Schinnerer: think it’s largely a matter of controlling your environment in order to assuage your anxiety. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yes. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: That to me is what it is. Right. And I get that. And so I want to help you out with that. I want. You to be, I want you to feel safe. I want you to be regulated. I want you to feel calm. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And I think it’s a great example of the nuances that really can get in the way of partnership.

And had I continued to see, to stay over attached to my righteous belief of how things needed to be done in the cleanup process versus look at the end goal. Is the kitchen clean? Did the counters get wiped down 

Dr. John Schinnerer: or 95 percent clean 

Joree Rose, LMFT: enough? To which I can really honor the effort rather than over attached to the way it was getting done.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, and that was one of the pieces I think that was difficult for me is that you were dead set convinced that you were quote unquote right. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I’ve really worked on releasing that. And I 

Dr. John Schinnerer: appreciate the hell out of that. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Have I gotten better? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Oh, way better, much better. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Okay. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: 100 fold. And I think that 

Joree Rose, LMFT: was a little bit part of why you broke up with me because I think you were afraid of how rigid I would be that look on your face.

I was afraid. I think you were afraid of how rigid I might be the rest of our life if I didn’t learn how to loosen up on some of the things I was holding tightly to that really in the long run didn’t make much of a difference. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: No. And, and I, you’re, you’re right. And I think the other thing that really helped in this area was.

Lightning up, rediscovering your playfulness or discovering your playfulness developing that thicker skin so that I could kind of kid with you and tease you about some of this stuff. So if it was, you know, slightly annoying for me to do it, even though I’m trying to support you, I could tease you about it a little bit.

And that made things much easier for me. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And likewise. You developing the thicker skin to not be overly sensitive to perceived criticism. If I gave feedback so I could tease you, it had to go both ways. And we’re going to do a whole episode on the power of banter and playfulness and what we need underneath that.

So that’s not exactly our conversation now, but we’ll come back to that some more. And I, you know, the, the, the dishwasher also, to me, I, to me, it’s like playing Tetris. It’s a puzzle. I like to organize it so that. Everything has a spot, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: which is fine. And actually, it’s 

Joree Rose, LMFT: fun for me. Like I actually really, really enjoy it, but I recognize how undermining it felt for you.

And that was the key part of I don’t want to undermine. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, and part of it is, I think there’s a call back to my marriage where. It felt like most times, many of the times, nothing I did was ever good enough. And so I, you know, I think that for me was, was part of my work to look back and like, what’s the trigger here for me.

And I think it’s multi layered. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Right. Well, okay. 

Deeper Issues and Therapy Insights

Joree Rose, LMFT: So now, you know, let’s turn the therapy onto you, John. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Okay. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: So underneath that for you was a sense of. I’m not good enough. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Not worthy. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And so it then becomes nothing about the dishwasher. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Well, and then, and we had some of these other themes where I kind of internalized the message that whatever I do wasn’t, wasn’t enough for you.

Joree Rose, LMFT: I hope that’s not true anymore. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: It’s not. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And how did we get there? How did we overcome that

dead silence? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I had to think about that. I think that part of it was the The ongoing conversations that we’ve had about it, I think understanding your intentions more, I think being able to have those uncomfortable conversations over and over again, to the point where I couldn’t believe it. I think that Our work with psilocybin and MDMA was really helpful.

I think that really 

Joree Rose, LMFT: helped us to rewire some of our rigid patterns of thinking. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And we’ll do a show or a few shows about that down the road. I also think that the session with sessions with Charlie and Linda are 12 hours 

Joree Rose, LMFT: of therapy 

Dr. John Schinnerer: over two days. And I think also the breakup was really helpful in the sense that.

It drove home the point of just how much I love you and gave me motivation to let some of that stuff go. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Right. What was more and really 

Dr. John Schinnerer: work on letting it go. Right. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I think from my perspective, one was the more we talked about it, the less emotionally charged it could get. And we could, and we talk about this with our clients a lot, where going back to an issue.

Multiple times and revisiting not rehashing the rehashing the issue from the point of getting reactivated by it. Or he said, she said, but rehashing the dynamics so that we better understood the motivating factors underneath for each of us and what was underneath it. And what were you thinking, feeling and what wound was it speaking from?

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And that was from our past specifics. Like, where was it that the trigger came up for you? What, what did I say? How did I say it? How could I say it differently? And, and was this really about us or was this about. Yeah. Past relationship. Well, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: that makes me think about Terry real’s work and relational a couple’s work of understanding.

Do you want to be right? Or do you want to be connected? And when you can put the relationship first, then your own individual righteousness or wound driven behaviors or actions, you can soften those in favor of what serves the relationship right now. And 

Dr. John Schinnerer: to go back, I want to drive home the point on that.

Would you rather be right? Or would you rather be married or would you rather be connected? Because it’s, it’s huge. It’s huge. In relational dynamics. I see it. We see it all the time with couples where they’re so doggedly attached to their narrative and the narrative that they are right and their partner is wrong.

And if they would just admit how wrong they are and apologize and admit how right they are. Everything would be fine, but that it never happens because there’s always, well, almost always two sides to every story. There’s different perceptions, there’s different understandings, different interpretations.

And so there’s no one objective reality as far as I’m concerned in a couple. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: So if the source of conflict is ultimately, I want my partner to validate what I’m feeling and an absence of them. Truly being able to hear what’s underneath the argument will stay in conflict. Would you agree? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And so the way out of that is recognizing that resolution in conflict doesn’t come from convincing another to change their mind.

All that we’re working towards is how do we honor our differences 

Dr. John Schinnerer: to 

Joree Rose, LMFT: become a cleaner person. But you already had that, by the way, since we live together, thank you so much. I told you last night how much I appreciate you picking up after yourself. And it’s not about changing the other person’s, you know, full way of being we’re trying to be complimentary and be respectful.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Cause let’s go to politics before we get to them. 

Values and Conflict Resolution

Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, I, I, yeah, I was going to jump in because, you know, oftentimes what’s. I would say most often underneath our behaviors and actions are our values. And when we’re being values driven, there is no wrong there. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. It’s, it’s usually a. Misunderstanding about how the other is prioritizing their values compared to your value.

Joree Rose, LMFT: And it’s perfectly fine. If we don’t have the exact same values, the key in partnership is how do I respect what your values are and not shit on your values because ultimately then I’m shitting on you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And let’s give an example of that. Just. Cause that’s pretty vague and 30, 000 foot view. But I, the classic example I use is, you know, husband comes home from work late.

The wife has prepared dinner. It’s very 1950s. Leave it to be, leave it to be her example, but bear with me. So the wife has gone to the trouble of making dinner, fed the kids. The dinner’s now cold. Kids are in bed. Husband 9 PM and she’s upset because he missed dinner. And. Missed out on the effort that she put in to make a nice dinner for him and the family.

He’s upset because he just broke his back working a, I don’t know, 12, 14 hour day. And if you look at it from a values perspective, there’s no wrong there. She’s focusing on nurturing the family, providing sustenance for the family. 

Balancing Work and Family Values

Joree Rose, LMFT: Quality time. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: He’s working. He’s valuing providing for the family. There’s no, there’s no wrong in those two values.

It’s just a matter of what value are you prioritizing as number one and number two in that moment. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Right. 

The Importance of Communication in Relationships

Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, and the key there that usually breaks down that particular dynamic is a lack of communication, right? So the more we can quickness 

Dr. John Schinnerer: to anger, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: right? I mean, there’s so many layers actually. So, you know, to be able to counteract that dynamic is the conversation around.

Hey, honey, just so you know, I’m going to be late for dinner. It’s been an extra long day at work. I appreciate, you know, that you put in this work for the family and for dinner, I’m sorry, I’m going to miss it. So, you know, communicating where we’re coming from what’s underneath our actions, expressing gratitude and appreciation for the other.

And that all sounds like a lot of work for couples to do when they’re pissed and annoyed and angry. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. 

Navigating Political Differences in Couples

Dr. John Schinnerer: And so let’s turn to politics because this one interests me. We got the election coming up here in a couple of weeks. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, no, as this episode comes out. It’s it’s election day. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Okay. It’s election day today.

Not right now, but I guess in the future. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: In, in this alternative reality. And, and it’s, it’s interesting to me because I remember a time, I don’t know, 12, 14, 16 years ago when I could have conversations, I’m a Democrat and I could have conversations with a Republican and I could listen calmly and respectfully to what they say.

They could listen to what I was saying and thinking and believing we could get at what our values are driving those beliefs. And even if we didn’t agree, for the most part, we could respect the values behind it. And like, for instance, I know like most Republicans highly value the in group versus the out group based on research by John Haidt.

Now, the in group is typically white Republicans. And That might vary a little bit, but for Democrats, the in group is humanity. And so then when you overlay something like immigration on it, then it’s a totally different ball game in the sense of if I’m looking at that from immigrants coming in and being a threat to my in group.

I’m going to fight like hell to prevent that. Then it’s an existential threat to who I am and my family and my wellbeing. If I see all of humanity as my in group, then people coming in from other countries is just people coming in from other countries and could actually support our trying to find their way.

And I believe that, you know, they don’t take food off our table. They actually help food, put food on our table to quote Chavez. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: So we know that since 2016 there has been an incredible disparity among. The, the different parties, and we have seen this show up in couples. So let’s speak to a few minutes of couples who share different political beliefs.

This is going to fall into one of the categories that are the 67%. Of things in a relationship that can’t be solved. So John share from your perspective, what would be great ways that couples can manage this value is different because that’s really what’s underneath it without it affecting the structure, safety, quality of their partnership.

Managing Emotional Reactions in Political Discussions

Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, yeah, let me go back a step prior to that because I, you know, recently I wrote an article supporting Kamala Harris in my newsletter to my 6, 000 newsletter subscribers. And I got some really heated attacks from some of the people that get my newsletter attacks that were went after my masculinity, my intelligence.

My sexuality told me that I shouldn’t be doing things like this. I’m a psychologist stick to psychology. They called me spineless and, and I wrote them all back and I said, I think you need to cool your jets here a little bit. Let me ask you a question. This is primarily an anger management newsletter.

Why are you coming at me in such anger? I did nothing wrong. I expressed my opinion. In my newsletter, which you are free to read or not read, you are free to subscribe to or unsubscribe from. I’m not making you do anything. I didn’t attack you. I didn’t call you names. I didn’t threaten you. I did nothing to you.

Why are you coming at me with vitriol and insult? Like this is one of the fundamental problems in our country right now, right? That we are so thin skinned. And our perception of the other side is so demonic that we can’t even manage our emotions well enough to listen to the other side. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, I think we see it 

Dr. John Schinnerer: as a personal attack.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, I think you said a key word there. It’s emotional management. And if we are not able to manage our emotions, then we’re not going to be able to even find the opportunity for healthy discourse. 

The Role of Emotional Regulation in Healthy Discourse

Dr. John Schinnerer: And this guy, you know, I, he was coming at me from a Christian perspective and I said, look, brother, you need to take the beam out of your own eye first.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Mm hmm. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Like I did nothing wrong here. You’re coming at me with an attack. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: What would Jesus say about that? I know damn well what Jesus would say about that. He’d say you’re wrong. And until we can actually manage our emotions well enough to act like adults and have like calm conversations, we’re in trouble.

And that’s part of the problem in this political discourse is that it’s become so polarized. Most of each side sees the other as. evil. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: So again, bringing it back to couples, how do we manage that? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, I think we got to go back to curiosity. We got to go back to respect. We got to go back to being curious about what are the values driving these beliefs.

And like, if, if your value is, you know, fear for your family safety over immigration. All right, cool. I can respect that. If your value is protecting the in group cool, I can respect it. I don’t agree with it. You know, in the way that you do, but I can respect where you’re coming from. I can respect that. You want isolationism as a foreign policy for the United States that you don’t think we should be going around getting involved in other people’s wars that you don’t think we should be involved in NATO.

Again, I don’t agree with that. Right. But I respect where you’re coming from and I can hear you and I can validate what you feel and what you think. I don’t have to agree with you though. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, and I think the key there and the tool for couples to practice in all areas of disagreement is non defensive listening, which is really hard to do if you can’t manage your emotions.

Well, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: and I think empathy validation. Yeah. But 

Joree Rose, LMFT: I think, you know, from the get go, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: right. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: You know, our initial response, if it’s defensive, Or if it’s a put down or a shutdown of those values, or you’re wrong, I’m right. I mean, right. I mean, we’re using politics here as the example for today, but these tools are the same regardless of the discourse.

Dr. John Schinnerer: This is just the hardest area to implement them. I would say right now, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: right now. And you know, and this goes for family and friends, like this isn’t just couples. Now we’re talking about it. How do we have healthy conversations when we disagree, when It is 1000 percent under that category of 67 percent of things that can’t be solved.

And I 

Dr. John Schinnerer: think the other thing about this, just in general with political views is. I’m, I’m really big fan of epistemology, which is a really fancy philosophy word for what’s the basis. What are we basing our knowledge on? And I think it’s really important for all of us to severely and seriously question, what are we basing our beliefs on?

Because it’s my understanding from doing years of research on this, that typically what we’re doing, we’re basing our beliefs on our feelings. And our feelings are not based on much at all. And the feelings are then quickly and by quickly, I mean, like a third of a second covered up in a rationalization so that you believe you’re being rational.

And, and I, I’ll ask everyone like, okay, well, so what do you base that belief on? And if you keep drilling down, what do you base that belief on? Pretty soon you’re basing it on nothing or it’s hearsay. And, and so the problem also I think is, you know, there’s a large majority in the United States that don’t trust science or research anymore.

And it’s like, well, if you don’t trust science and research in large numbers, what do you trust? 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. And, and 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I think it’s, it’s a real problem because we’re living in a post truth world. And, and I don’t think a lot of times we can even agree on a fact. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, and we recently went to an incredible talk at UC Berkeley by one of the world’s leading researchers on AI and deep fakes.

And there’s really good evidence to believe that we can’t even trust what we see on land and social media as being real and factual. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. That the fakes for, for videos now have gotten so good though. They can fool the experts. You can’t even discern differences with subtle neck muscle movements or emotional expressions, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: right?

And what they can take 20 seconds of someone’s existing video. And from that 20 seconds, create an entire long in depth. Video just using 20 seconds of data, say 

Dr. John Schinnerer: anything. And one of the things that he was truly concerned about, and he’s seen this in an Eastern European country already, is that let’s say Kamala wins and Trump loses, that he thinks it’s highly likely that a fake video will be made of Kamala saying that she rigged the election, which is going to sow chaos.

And this, I mean, Highly likely it could come from China or Russia. I mean, we’re already seeing, they’ve been screwing in our elections for years at this point and sowing disinformation. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah, it’s that I left leaving that talk very fearful for the future of the safety of our, of our world and information.

And it, you know, when we get so rigid in our belief system and we’re unable to be open to hearing another perspective, another side, I think that’s where the real breakdown happens with couples, relationships, family members, friends who have this different discourse. And so let’s talk for a second about how to.

Stay emotionally regulated and what that even means when you’re in heated conversations about things that are not going to necessarily change, but maybe like, okay, what do I, like, what’s the tangible practice there? What do I actually do so that we don’t get more disconnected? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. I think the first thing is practicing some self awareness.

Do you even notice that you’re, well, I think 

Joree Rose, LMFT: the supplement is to notice breathing, what it feels like in your body to start feeling 

Dr. John Schinnerer: dysregulated, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: the heart rate increase pit in your stomach, blood starting to boil and thoughts racing. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: I think you’re right. And part of the problem I see with most of the men that I work with, and I think most of the men out there is that we don’t even know what it feels like to be truly relaxed, that we.

Have our sympathetic nervous system, the fight, flight, freeze, or stress response. active the vast majority, if not all the time. And I think about the things that men like, okay, we got business, right? We’re at work. And then we go home and what do we do in our spare time? We’ll race a motorcycle. We’ll drive a car fast.

We’ll, we’re going to watch action movies where people are shooting and killing each other. It’s a lot. We’re going to watch sports. We’re going to watch football. We’re going to watch basketball where our team’s losing and we get activated by the calls from the refs. And it just, if you look at the emotional palette of what we do during our free time, the vast majority of it is activating that stress response that, you know, we’re turning on the 

Joree Rose, LMFT: nervous system.

Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And, and, and I don’t think that we really know what it feels like to relax. So if we don’t know what it feels like to be relaxed, how can we even get to that, that point? Of being in a difficult conversation and try to get to relaxed. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, let’s do an entire episode on how to activate the relaxation response.

And I think that would be really helpful because for many people listening, this might just feel conceptual and a nice ideal, but they still don’t know how to get there. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: And let me tell you the thing that really fries me about this whole concept, particularly with men, because that’s who I generally deal with is.

If we can’t truly relax, we’ve effectively cut off the possibility of experiencing more than half the positive emotions out there. So we’re shooting ourselves in the foot in terms of our own happiness. Right. And that, that really frustrates me because my goal for everyone is to be happier, ultimately.

And I don’t care what your political beliefs are. Right. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, let’s take this a couple other relational examples that, you know, these conflicts get in the way of connection and resolution. 

Financial Infidelity and Trust Issues

Joree Rose, LMFT: And one of the things that we see with a handful of our clients is financial infidelity or financial misspending that feels like a breach of trust.

And 

Dr. John Schinnerer: it is 

Joree Rose, LMFT: based on different factors that make either talking about money difficult or a lot of I don’t know. We’ve seen low self worth and having a fear of rejection if they made a poor financial choice and doing things to continue to cover it up fear of a reactive response from their partners.

So it’s better off to not share anything than to share the maybe mistake I might have made so. You know, again, if some of these challenges and I guess financial alignment is probably not within the 67 percent that can’t be solved, because I think you can work towards resolution on understanding how to share your money and how to spend it.

And money seems to be a hot topic that would maybe be up there with politics for couples. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And I think there’s a lot wrapped up in that. I know for, for most of us, there’s worth issues wrapped up in this. I know for men, we’re supposed to be the provider. So if we’re earning less than our spouse, that can hit us.

At a soft spot, if we screw up an investment or if we lose money. It, it makes us feel unworthy. I’m, I would think for most, it makes us feel shame. And so then we want to cover it up because we don’t want to share it because we’re too ashamed, which makes the whole problem worse. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: So what would be, if that’s a typical struggle for men, what would be a way to practice some vulnerability around that?

So as to not further the chasm in the relationship of This issue. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, I think the first step would be to practice transparency around the issues early on. Yeah. So that you have the ability to have these conversations so that when something difficult does arise, you’re better equipped to talk about it.

I think most people struggle to talk about finances. In any case, because it’s, it’s, it’s an emotionally charged issue. We got so much wrapped up in money. You know, what was our family like growing up? Did we have money? Did we not have money? What were the rules that we learned about it? Does money grow on trees or do we have to tighten our belt?

Like what is the emotional context about wealthy people or wealthy people, assholes or wealthy people that they earn their money. Like there’s a lot of kind of hidden rules that we have. And there’s a lot. And I, you know, there’s a lot of partners that we’ve talked to in couples counseling that see money as security.

Some see it as freedom. Some see it as the ability to travel. Some see it as the key to happiness. And, and so to be able to have those conversations about what does it mean to you? What was it like for you growing up? How much did you have? What are your beliefs about money? 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. What’s the story around that?

That’s been something that I’ve, I’ve had fascinating practice in looking at my different narratives and belief and emotional response to money. And it’s been hard to talk about at times, you know, and. It’s, it’s interesting in couples, I remember for you and I years ago, we had I think it was, I don’t know if it was a night or a weekend away up to Napa to see Chris Isaac in concert.

And it was so exciting. I mean, Chris Isaac threw me his guitar pick, no joke. Like that was, that was an epic moment, but we had a nice, he 

Dr. John Schinnerer: threw it at me and I gave it to you. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: First, my bubble. I’m sorry. He threw it to 

Dr. John Schinnerer: you. He threw it to you. I was totally wrong. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Anyhow. Thank you. You’re welcome. I recall that we had a challenge after that weekend because you had felt we spent too much money.

And when you named that, it to me felt like you then didn’t value the, the nice weekend we had. Do you remember that and that was coming from, you know, I think a position of where you were soon after your divorce and, and, you know, where money might’ve felt more scarce versus abundant. And I was coming from a place of, we just had this beautiful connection.

Why are we now bringing up the hard part underneath it? And no one’s wrong there. And if I were to approach or react to you and be like, Oh my God, I can’t believe you just like ruin the image of this nice weekend because you were overwhelmed with what we spent. Or if you would have come to me and said, I can’t believe you assumed that we could have done all that, whatever it was, it could have come across as a personal attack.

And I don’t think that’s how it ended up. I think it was more of a, thank you for sharing how you’re feeling. Let’s be mindful together going forward to make sure we’re consciously making the choices along the way that align with both of our needs. And so I think that’s a good example in which we could see where those differences create bigger problems versus hearing, thanks for sharing how you’re feeling.

I will be aware of that from both of our sides. So 

Dr. John Schinnerer: that goes back to the curiosity and non defensive listening and how important it is so that your partner feels seen, heard, and validated. And then it doesn’t create, it’s not one of the paper cuts that accumulate. And lead to the change in perception of your partner being all good to all bad, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: right?

Because I could take that example to an extreme and be like, Oh my God, he never wants to have a nice weekend away ever again. And you could take that to the extreme of like, she wants to spend without caring. And then if we take those belief systems and then over attach it to other behaviors and we’re stuck in that viewpoint of each other.

That’s going to feel really hard to come back 

Dr. John Schinnerer: from. So being willing to look at both of our narratives around whatever the issue is, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: whether, and you know, we, I don’t even think we’ve got time to jump into this one. So this will also have to be an entire other conversation. 

The Impact of Family of Origin on Relationships

Joree Rose, LMFT: And one that we see a lot of couples really stuck in is differences in child rearing.

And with that also comes bringing in the, how do I want to say? The values or patterns that they each have from their family of origin in creating their new family together with their kids and boundaries around that, again, huge conflict, right, let’s say one partners really close with her family, and the, you know, the partner doesn’t really get along with them, how do we balance.

That might be one of those 67 percent of things that can’t really be fixed. So how do we get through it in a way that doesn’t lead to more and more and more disconnection? Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. How do you lean into what your partner wants and needs in order to help them co regulate? 

Joree Rose, LMFT: There are so many factors that get in the way of connection.

Strategies for Conflict Resolution

Joree Rose, LMFT: And if I were to start to sum up this episode I think it’s probably a really helpful conversation for partners to sit down and say, what are those areas in our lives. That do fall under that 67 percent that we continue to fight about to convince each other or shame or blame or each other or get defensive around that is only creating a bigger problem.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I would say, because if you find that it is, does it, that it does fall in the bucket of the unresolvable, then the best you can do is to listen with curiosity. To validate how they feel and to listen nonjudgmentally without trying to solve it or fix it 

Joree Rose, LMFT: well. And we know in the current research of John and Julie Gottman in their recent book that came out within the past year called fight right.

We do know that they say when you’re having an argument with your partner, there’s only one thing that you’re supposed to accomplish. Regulate your nervous system when you’re activated. And you know what that feels like? I said it a few moments ago, heart increase, blood boiling, tension, tightness in the stomach, 

Dr. John Schinnerer: negative thoughts, 

Joree Rose, LMFT: right?

That rumination. If you are stuck in any of that activated nervous system, you’re never. It’s going to get to resolution. So the only goal when you’re activated is to calm your body down. And then once you’re calm, then come back to the conversation. If you’re trying to have the conversation, when you’re activated, it’s going to escalate causing greater disconnect.

And if you 

Dr. John Schinnerer: get triggered or activated in the followup conversation, take another break, take a break, try it again. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And they say it actually takes minimum of 20 minutes to come to take a break, 20 minutes 

Dr. John Schinnerer: of not thinking about the issue at hand. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Which means. Letting it be okay to put the conversation on pause.

Now I will say one little caveat there for someone who used to have a more anxious attachment. If you were to say to me in the midst of a disconnection or argument or, you know, being frustrated with each other, Hey, Jor, I need to take a break. I’m going to, I’m going to go over here for, you know, the next 20 minutes plus that would have felt like abandonment to me.

So the key there, and this is also in the Gottman’s research. Is let your partner know when you’re coming back, because if you say, Hey, I need 20 minutes and then I will check back in, that would make me feel more calm that it didn’t feel like abandonment 

Dr. John Schinnerer: and then make sure you’re back by that time.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Right? So they say minimum of 20 minutes, no more than 24 hours, which during the height of our not so great parts of our relationship, it extended to 24 hours, which was super dysregulating. I don’t recommend that, but this is one of the ways to intervene. When you’re stuck, I totally 

Dr. John Schinnerer: recommend the 24 hours, personal differences.

Joree Rose, LMFT: Not so much being relational right there. He takes that back, right? 

Dr. John Schinnerer: What? 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: No. 20 minutes to 24 hours. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Okay. But not 24 hours of abandonment. For me. That was too much. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. I mean, if I know who you are and I know what your tendencies are, I would not do that. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: Again, ever. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Anyhow, I hope this was a helpful conversation for you to listen to. I, I really think this model applies to no matter what challenge that you’re facing with your partner is recognize what are the values underneath their behaviors, their actions, their belief systems. See if you can. Be curious, stay open, be less defensive, less reactive.

We don’t want to look to blame shame or judge someone’s beliefs. We’re looking for ways to find compromise, to stay open minded. And one of the best interventions to defensive listening is thank you for sharing how you feel. It doesn’t mean we have to like it. And I think that’s the key. I’m not going to 

Dr. John Schinnerer: agree.

Joree Rose, LMFT: I’m not always going to like what you think or feel or want. I’m not always going to agree with it. So what’s my goal there then? Well, I don’t want to be disconnected. I know that feels worse. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. That’s the highest goal. 

The Importance of Radical Acceptance

Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, and I also know that, you know, in my roots of practicing and teaching mindfulness, one of the best ways to reduce our suffering.

is to accept what’s here. So the more I can accept who you are, and the less I judge who you are, I will feel much better. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, I’m a big fan of radical acceptance. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And so, you know, going back to the crumbs, I can accept you don’t have great eyesight and therefore may not be able to pick up things. To my standard, I accept that fully.

Therefore it’s not a bother for me whatsoever. 

Dr. John Schinnerer: You’re 

Joree Rose, LMFT: welcome. Anyhow, this was a fun conversation. 

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Joree Rose, LMFT: I hope you guys found this you know, some, some good takeaways that you can begin to implement into your own relationship to reduce conflict and increase connection so that you have a happy, thriving, fulfilling, intimate, vulnerable, safe, secure, fun, playful, loving relationship.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And as always, thank you for listening. If you liked this, please be sure to rate, review, and share. 

Joree Rose, LMFT: And we will see you next time.

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