How To Talk So Your Partner Listens – Podcast #4
In the fourth episode, top-notch couples therapists, Dr. John Schinnerer and Joree Rose, LMFT, discuss learning how to communicate better with their partner. So why is this such a huge relationship challenge? There’s lots of reasons: we often are not role modeled healthy or effective communication strategies, we get triggered and angry, many times we don’t know what we feel, need or want, or if we do, we don’t always have the words to communicate it. And even if we were able to express ourselves clearly and kindly, our partner may not have the skills to receive it well. So what happens? Frustration and resignation take over, communication becomes limited to transactional conversations and couples are left feeling disconnected. We get it – we’ve been there. In this episode Joree & John not only talk broadly about communication challenges in relationships, they also share their own personal journey and how once they mastered one essential tool in particular, their communication and relationship vastly improved. If you are stuck in communication patterns that are leaving you feeling unheard or defensive, then this episode is for you!
Follow us on Instagram @loveisntenough33. Visit www.loveisntenough.net for more info and how to work with the best couples therapists in the area. Check out their revolutionary monthly relationship master class now available also! To learn more about, Dr. John, visit Guide To Self, and to learn more about Joree, visit JoreeRose.com.
Introduction and Episode Overview
Joree Rose: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to this week’s episode of love. Isn’t enough today. John and I are going to be talking about how to communicate your needs to your partner and as the partner hearing the needs, how to receive them and how to be able to implement new patterns of communication where you both feel heard.
And. Ultimately, that will make you feel more connected.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Mm hmm. Yes. You’re absolutely right.
Joree Rose: You seem like you have a lot to say on the topic already.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Is that your challenge in communicating your needs or?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: That is. I’m trying to figure out how to communicate my needs. I have the need to be silent.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Oh, well that’s not going to work for recording right now so you can you can you can meet that need later love.
Personal Challenges in Communication
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Okay, so maybe let’s start with looking at what most couples struggle with before we offer how to fix it so maybe we can start with our own relationship challenges [00:01:00] around communicating https: otter.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: ai That we used to have. Not now. I’m
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: confused. I don’t have any relationship challenges.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: You’re in a very strange mood right now.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: It’s late. My throat hurts. I’m wet and cranky.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Oh, part of that sounded good. Okay. I’m going to hand it over to you, John. Let’s talk about earlier in our relationship. What were some of the issues you had in communicating to me, what you were feeling, what you were needing?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Well, I think early on, I was having a hard time communicating some of my needs to you. I think some early on, I had a hard time putting my needs into words. And then when I finally did put them into words my experience was that they weren’t received well, that there was defensiveness and it was hard for you to hear me.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Was that all the time?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: No, no. Just in some things. Yeah. The most difficult.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Well, and I think that’s the case for so many couples, right? The most [00:02:00] difficult things to communicate are going to be the most difficult to receive because I know for me, when you would share things around your needs and I couldn’t hear them well, I felt embarrassed.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I felt mad at myself for not being able to hear you. Oh yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I had that
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: shame
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: there and full disclosure, you were great about, I don’t know, 90 percent of the things that I brought up.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: So it was just. A few things, right?
Couples Therapists Discuss Patterns and Emotional Dynamics
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And usually life is easy when it’s easy. It’s more about what do we do when it’s no longer easy and we feel stuck because then what gets the pattern going for couples is we’re like, fuck it.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I’m not going to bring up anything then,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: right? And that’s what you’ve said repeatedly. You don’t want to get to that point, which I absolutely agree.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. For me, the things that I would have struggled with telling you were times that you hurt my feelings, even if it was like something completely innocuous and unintentional, I would walk on eggshells [00:03:00] around expressing, Hey, what you did just hurt my feelings.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Because that would contend to spiral us into like that anxious avoidant dance in which you would shut down and withdraw. And then I’d get anxious and start to rescue you. And then I would rescue you out of your hurt feelings based on what my original hurt feelings were. And then the repair was around getting you to regulate.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And then my needs, I felt like weren’t getting heard.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Yeah. And sorry about that. And I think that’s a very common pattern. And I think in that direction too, right. Where the, the male is really emotionally sensitive, whether or not they’re aware of it. I think most aren’t aware of it, but you know, they do something that disappoints or hurts their partner, their partner says, Hey, this hurts my feelings.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And then like, I know I would go to beating myself up and ultimately at times even shame.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Right.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And then I couldn’t. Pull myself out of my own emotional ditch. And so you felt the need to come in and try and help me [00:04:00] out, which is backwards from how it’s supposed to be.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Well, I am an empath and when you would get shut down, I would feel bad.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And then I would be in this kind of double bind of feeling bad for the original thing that hurt my feelings and then bad that what I said hurt your feelings. And as you know, someone who didn’t know how to sit in discomfort, I wanted to rescue you from that, but I didn’t know how to rescue myself from that.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: it felt easier to push my own stuff aside at that point, which is ironic because the initial stuff I didn’t want to push aside the initial hurt. I wanted to share, but it was just, it was a spiral.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Yeah. And it was, it was a tough one to get out of it. I think we got stuck in it for a couple of years.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Breaking the Cycle
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So what would you say for you, for you became easier on communicating what you needed to share that I really needed to hear differently.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Let’s, let’s go back and, I mean, do you want to talk about how we got out of that? Sure. Dance.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Since [00:05:00] we’re on that one. And I think the first step was awareness.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Just the realization that, oh, this is the pattern.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Mm-hmm .
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And then, you know, with practice you can see the pattern maybe right after you were in the pattern mm-hmm . And then when you’re in the pattern, you can see the pattern. Right. And, and I think that was really helpful. I think one of the things that helped me out was doing some internal family systems work with myself with that hurt five-year-old in me that, you know, I think would go to.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Emotional overwhelm and shame and maybe self loathing, you know, when I would disappoint my mom, for example, and things would be blamed on me. And I think there was an emotional carryover to when I would disappoint you.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Right.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: So I tried to heal that, that inner child.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So again, I mean, I think I
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: did.
Joree Rose, Best Couples Therapist: Like we always say, it’s the joint. What’s the, you know, the joint process I should say of doing the individual work as well as the relational work, [00:06:00] because in order to access the better relational communication between the two of us, I think we both had to look at what was underneath our dynamics there.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Couples Therapist: When I think that’s a great example for us where I knew what to do.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I just couldn’t access the tools when I was flooded in those moments.
Understanding Emotional Flooding
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So how did you get on flooded? Because most people don’t even know what it means to be flooded, let alone awareness of when it’s happening, let alone how to get out of it.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Well, flooded is when, you know, your sympathetic nervous system takes over and you get into fight flight freeze and, you know, for me, I would go to anger was probably the most easiest emotion to recognize.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Couples Therapist: And so then I would shut down because I didn’t want to say anything in anger that was going to hurt your feelings, which kind of cracks me up because it’s a great rationalization. And it’s, it’s true at one level, I was trying not to hurt you. And yet at another level, from your perspective, it looked like, and it was Stonewall.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: So I was just shutting an iron curtain on the conversation and just like. We’re done [00:07:00] here unilaterally, which felt to you like being abandoned, if I remember correctly.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: A hundred percent. Yes.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And so I, you know, I had to recognize what it was. I also had to recognize that shame was involved because that was kind of a game changer for me.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And the, the way I recognize shame was after the fact, I realized that there was a couple of thoughts in my head in those moments that sounded like she’d be better off without me. Or I’m just no good at this relationship thing. And, you know, the extension of that is I’m better off alone, but the shame piece of that is I’m unworthy of love connection and belonging, which.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Is completely untrue, but in the moment feels true,
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: right? And as no matter how much I told you, you, you were worthy. I couldn’t heal that wound for you.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Yeah, it wasn’t about you. That was stuff that was really old. It was a pattern that existed in my life in every relationship I’ve been in and was something that embarrassed me because it was one of those situations where I was unable to manage myself emotionally.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And that [00:08:00] always. Frustrates me. And so what did I do? I listened. I mean, one of the things that were key for me, I think was listening to no bad parts on audio book by Dick Schwartz and doing some of the exercises that he lays out in the book and going in and talking with that five year old part of me and.
Healing and Internal Work
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Reassuring him that he’s safe and loved and worthy renegotiating the role so that he didn’t have to take over that defensive strategy that he has been using since he was five to protect all of me. And kind of relieving him of that burden and allowing my wise adult self to take over in those moments rather than him.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Right. So basically what you’re saying to simplify it is when I would name my hurt, that five year old self rose to the surface.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Yeah. And came out and threw out his one defense that he’s used his whole life to keep us safe.
Joree Rose, Best Couples Therapist: Right. And I’m trying to think back in those moments of what did I really do to start [00:09:00] hearing you?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Well, I think when you broke up with me, I really woke up. I think, I, you know, I think there might’ve been a handful of things that led to the breakup, but an accumulation of paper cuts of not feeling heard was definitely top of the list.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Yeah. Which is ironic because that was your deepest need. Was to
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: be heard.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Seen, heard, and validated.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. I’m so sorry about that.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I forgive
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: you. Well, and I think, you know, in order to really effectively hear one another, we’ve got to put us put aside our own, our own shit. It’s, you know, to hear your partner means to fully be open that their experience is real, valid, and true regardless.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Yeah. And I think, and this takes some practice. I think partly it’s about taking off the armor, letting your guard down, being open and staying open to your partner and their influence and what they’re saying. And I know at times for us, at least for me, that was, it was hard [00:10:00] because one of the hardest things for me was when I would hurt you and, you know, it didn’t have to be intentional.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Usually it wasn’t right. I don’t think it was ever intentional, but I discovered that I hate. To hurt you. I hate to disappoint you. And that was one of the dynamics I think that led to the most difficulty for me was when I let you down. And I’ve talked to a lot of men about that and said, you know, just be aware that that might be the case for you.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Right. And for you to start to hear me, the biggest shift was not being defensive in listening, which is. Rick was so much easier said than done and requires a lot of emotional regulation. To not get defensive. If you start to feel that nervous system turn on.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Yeah. It’s amazing to me that, I mean, I’m 57 and I think I only started practicing non defensive listening [00:11:00] within the last two years, like that that’s.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Kind of astounding to me and, and it, to me, it’s a game changer.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Oh, well, for me, it was amazing to be able to hear your non defensive, defensive responses.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Well, let’s talk about that one where I gave you permission. I like how you put it. You’re like, John gave me permission to get angry with him, but he also gave me a lot of reason to be angry.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Oh,
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: you gave me plenty of reason to be angry with you.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Let’s talk about that because I think that’s a really good example where I said, you know, I, I give you permission to unload on me and let me, let me have your anger. Yeah.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So let me back up. I, I, I think I want, you’ve given a lot of context and what was your challenge and how you overcame that.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I think I want to give a little context in where I was at
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: context.
Fear of Abandonment
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I am, I want to put things in context and I. I was always afraid. Like my biggest fear was abandonment and I [00:12:00] had
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: no small fear,
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: no, it was no
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: trauma in there as well.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Well, and I was just going to say some of that fear was based in reality.
Joree Rose, Top Couples Therapist: And so it wasn’t just what ifs in my life. And it was rooted in. At 10 years old, my dad commits suicide. Prior to that, at three years old, my parents divorced. I saw my dad very infrequently, especially the last two and a half years of his life. I only saw him twice a year and in my family of origin, my mom’s parents were killed in a car accident.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: When my mom was 16, they were hit by a drunk driver. My mom was the only survivor of the accident. Her parents instantly died and. She became caretaker to her two younger brothers and her immigrant Russian grandparents moved in, but she, she was the caretaker. And so,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: so loss was a real thing. Loss was
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: real.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Like in my worldview, people die unexpectedly or actually by choice. So people [00:13:00] leaving was not just a, Oh, I’m afraid you might leave me. It wasn’t a hypothetical. And so I think my nervous system, when I got. Fearful around a potential abandonment, my nervous system did go into overdrive that was unrelated or disproportionate to the trigger.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So what that looks like for me was often afraid of speaking up for fear that I was too much and that what I had to say would be too much for someone to handle. And therefore they leave me,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I really like the idea of us feeling either too much or not enough. And sometimes
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: both. Well, I mean, but you described how you didn’t feel worthy of being in relationship that was you feeling not enough.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And I
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: felt like I was too much and and ironically the thing that made me feel like I was too much was. When I had emotion about [00:14:00] something. And ironically, the thing that made you feel not enough was having emotion about something. So if we can all just agree that having emotion does not make you not enough for too much, then we could all just actually communicate a lot easier.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: y’all know, Jory and I joke about that. Where, you know, when we have moments when our emotion takes over and we are struggling to manage our own emotions, we’ll say something like, fucking humanity, because it, it pisses us off to be human sometimes it’s frustrating.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It’s really frustrating. And. I think what we’ve done a really good job of laughing about that is normalizing it.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And if we normalize it, then we can deal with it much better when it arises and we don’t have to feel so stuck in retreating to those old patterns that we don’t, that we know do not work. So that was the context of where I was coming from. And, you know, I, I think [00:15:00] for what shifted was. Which is really ironic.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So let me just, you know, for greater context of being ironic, my biggest fear was that you were going to leave me. And then you did, repeatedly, during six months of being on and off, and then finally getting broken up with. So it wasn’t just a fear anymore, because I no longer could trust when you’d say, I’m not going anywhere.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I’m just needed time to cool off, but I’m like, but you, but you have, so that trusted time to rebuild and we can have a whole nother episode on that. But once I realized. You weren’t going anywhere. And I think I realized that truly after our breakup and you coming back to me and recognizing I don’t want to live without you again because that fucking sucked and we were miserable and we sucked at being broken up and that’s when we knew like we better change our patterns otherwise we’re going to end up here again and we didn’t want to be there again.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: It was too painful.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Oh, it was the worst pain I’ve ever experienced. And [00:16:00] so with that, in which we both acknowledge the patterns we had been stuck in. And we committed to doing it differently.
Permission to Express Anger
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: One of the things was you giving me permission to get angry because anger was one of those emotions that I had never, ever, ever, ever expressed.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: When I recognized at some point in our relationship, you just didn’t get angry. And there was times I was like, why is she not getting angry with this person or these people? And did
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: you ever wonder why I didn’t get angry at you? No,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: no, no, no, really. Why would you get angry with me? So it was, it was definitely other people, but it, it, it kind of brought up this question mark.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Like, do you know that you don’t, you don’t show anger?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I think I did know, I think I was really, really afraid of anger. I was certain anger would push, push you away. Because I saw small things like saying that hurt my feelings, push you away. [00:17:00] So therefore a big thing would certainly push you away to disconnection.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I, I would rather at that time have stayed connected than being authentic to how I felt, which is really sad. And unfortunately I think a way that many people stay stuck.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Couples Therapist: Yeah. I’m sorry about that. Oversensitivity.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Well, I, you know, kind of. Like when we see our strengths becoming our challenges, right? I love how sensitive you are.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I love how deeply feel, how deeply you feel. I think it gives you a great ability for empathy for others. It makes you a great therapist and connecting with your clients. It gives you a great ability to see people. It was just hard and intimacy. I think intimate relationships was the one challenge to you being sensitive.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Otherwise I see it as a, as a beautiful strength and a great role model for men, how it was handled. I don’t think it was effective relationally
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: at times.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But when it got, when we [00:18:00] got stuck and I had to trust that you giving me permission to get angry would not have you abandon me. And I still didn’t know how to do that.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Even though you had given me plenty of reason to feel angry. Until you did. And then, I don’t even remember the first time. Do you? Do you remember when I?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I remember getting in a heated argument in your living room.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: don’t even know if it was an argument. It was you yelling at me.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. Actually, I can think of a couple of times I really yelled at you.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I’m not going to lie, John. It felt fucking cathartic. Well, and that was the point,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: right? And I had to let it out. I think that’s one of the, one of the things I tell clients is that it’s a beautiful thing to do. To give people that you love permission to feel a certain way with you to like angry and then to really listen to the emotion behind their words and just say, wow, yeah, I can see where that really pisses you off or I can see where that really makes you [00:19:00] upset.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And I’m really sorry. Period.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Because I think that’s one of the few ways we have to get some of these emotions out of us.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Well, I can tell you this. There were, I don’t know, maybe five times where we really just kind of yelled at each other and I’m not a yeller. That’s never ever, ever been my mode of communication.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I think one of my absolute strengths is staying calm when really angry and having. Great emotional management when things would otherwise be obvious why I wouldn’t, but there was something cathartic for me to get, have the permission to yell at you and to let that anger out. Now, let me just say yelling at each other was more about my anger.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It wasn’t name calling. It wasn’t cutting below the belt. I don’t think there was ever like, I don’t think I was mean when I expressed my anger. He’s kind of looking up. Okay. Maybe I was, [00:20:00] maybe I’m over. Memor, you know, my memory feels a little bit more in favor of, it was anger. It was anger.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Premiere Couples Therapist: It was raw.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: There’s no filter and you needed that.
Discovering the Power of Anger
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I think I had never had that in 45 years.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: It was beautiful about it is it allowed you to get in touch with your anger or other relationships in your life. And it allowed you to set boundaries.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: That’s very true. Because in absence of me being able to fully express myself, I had a really hard time with boundaries because
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: we need that anger.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: We need that anger to let us know when people are trespassing on us or treating us badly or taking advantage of us. And we need that anger to motivate us to set boundaries and say, you can’t treat me like this.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. I think I was for a long time, a little bit of a doormat because I was allowing myself to be treated in a way because I was too afraid to speak up.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Well, you ain’t a doormat anymore.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: No, no, I am not.
The Breakup’s Hidden Purpose
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And This is [00:21:00] one of the areas in which I feel our, our breakup really had immense purpose and it wasn’t just for you and I, it was truly a greater a bit, a greater ability to access my authentic emotions, to communicate my authentic emotions, and then to be able to heal and repair, so that I could feel authentic.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Once again,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: and I think we, the breakup really worked well for both of us. I mean, it was not. Pleasant. It was, as you said, painful as hell. And yet it did exactly what it needed to do. I mean, I think we both got more real, more authentic. I think there was things that needed to be said that we were hesitant to say to one another because we don’t want to hurt each other.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Right.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And it bit us in the ass.
Joree Rose, Premiere Couples Therapist: Right. So for couples who breaking up is not an option to do the repair, I don’t want to prescribe that as a formula, but it again, you know, it was what we needed and I think the breakup was easier because we weren’t [00:22:00] married. We didn’t live together. So it was easier to separate in that way without disrupting the whole apple cart of our family.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: But having the permission, allow yourself to really say what you need to say authentically, how it made you feel. And the other piece is, you know, put, make a request on the back end around what you need to have happen in the future.
Effective Communication Strategies
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So as you did your internal family systems to be able to talk yourself down when you were feeling activated and what was coming up for you, the next thing you did was when I did express myself, you did not go into explanations.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Excuses, justifications, rationalizations, that was not the time for that. And that is what also made it effective for me to express myself because you simply allowed it to stay [00:23:00] in what the emotion was. And sometimes your response was as simple as. Thank you for sharing how you feel. I can see how you’re really feeling.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Thank you for sharing that. And with that response, I could say, thank you for hearing me. And that might’ve been it in that moment. And then we later could come back and you could say, Hey, hon, I want to be able to follow up. And can I share with you as kind of ask permission to make it, you know, that soft and startup that is so helpful in communication.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: But Hey, you know, can I share with you where I was at or what I was feeling underneath that? If you lead with that as a defense. My emotion then still gets dismissed.
Understanding and Validating Emotions
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: One to the listener, Consider how many times in your lifetime, you’ve been given permission to be angry or your anger has been allowed by someone and they simply listen to you and they hear how angry and hurt and upset you are.
And then they say. Thank you for sharing that with me. And they don’t make a move to defend [00:24:00] themselves or explain themselves at all. And for most of us, I’d say it’s zero.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: John, I had never seen that even happen. And even in all my therapy training and all the work with clients, I didn’t even know to guide that as a tool until you really showed up with that.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And, I mean, talk about humility in. Getting railed on and breathing through that and not getting angry and lashing out in return. And, you know, the things that I was angry with you about these weren’t projections I mean these were actual things right it wasn’t like, I’m just angry and I’m unleashing on anything right I don’t think I just.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: You know, as you listen to this, I want to make a difference between someone who just has an anger issue and is spewing anger for no reason. Totally different. I mean, we’re talking like you did something to hurt my feelings and I’m angry about it and I’m expressing my anger
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: or [00:25:00] like, I forget the word projections, displacing.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: The anger, like you get angry at work because your boss yells at you. And so you come home and yell at your spouse. That’s not what we’re talking about.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: That’s not at all what we’re talking about. This is like actual instances, direct
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: correlation one to one, right? I did something, you were hurt and angry.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I think it took me a long time. Once we started that dynamic, it’s still, and I can think of something somewhat recently where I was still like, Ooh, should I say how that felt? Cause I think, you know, it’s just, it takes a while to rewire those old patterns.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Well, and, and one of the things that’s interesting, so we had those four or five, what I would call arguments, like fights, which before that, that never happened.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And it really hasn’t happened since.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And you and I have talked about this. I don’t see that that’s ever going to happen like that again.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I don’t see it happening. Cause I think [00:26:00] we got out what we needed to get out. We needed to get that raw and that vulnerable. We needed to share that emotion. And once it’s done, I see it as behind us.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Right.
Addressing Deep-Seated Issues
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And so, you know, I think the challenge for couples, and we know this from the Gottman’s research that most couples wait six years of issues in their relationship before they come to therapy, six years,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: too long,
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: six years, too long. And oftentimes at the time they come in for therapy, they are already committed to their narrative.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And their pain is so hurt that they either don’t think it’s possible to get out of that dynamic, or at that point, they don’t really want to get out of that dynamic, or they feel like, you know, I’ve been holding on to this for so long. And that’s even the stuff I’ve been aware of.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Yeah. And I see, you’re absolutely right.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I see them so many couples as unwilling or unable to drop their anger. And the mask that they’re wearing and the interpretation that they have in the blame that they have towards their partner. And, you know, [00:27:00] the, the thinking there when we’re angry is if you just stop being such an asshole or a bitch, I wouldn’t be so happy.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I wouldn’t be so pissed off. Right. And it. That thinking doesn’t work.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: No, no,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: because we got to look at what’s my part. I’ve got to look at what’s my part in this drama, in this play. And what can I do differently? How can I show up differently to help interrupt this pattern, this dance that we’re in.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Right.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And it takes awareness. I mean, that’s back to what we were saying a few moments ago. And we know from, and I think we may have mentioned it in one of the other episodes, but what’s the percentage of people who think they’re aware.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: 95%.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And what’s the actual percentage of people who are self aware?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: 12 15.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. So, this is an invitation to look at yourself and look at the challenges you and your partner are having and how might you name those challenges only by owning your piece in it?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Yeah. That would be huge. When having the humility to say, you don’t know, or the humility to say, [00:28:00] maybe I’m a little bit wrong here.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Maybe I, maybe I have something that I could change. Maybe I have something that I could work on. Maybe there’s something I need to learn to do differently.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And at the very least, I think the humility that, and I see, I see this a lot with partners. Well, that wouldn’t hurt me. Why did it hurt her?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Pardon me?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: It doesn’t matter. Like there’s no right or wrong to feeling. There’s no right or wrong to emotion. If, if it. If it bothers your partner, if it hurts your partner, that’s all you need to know.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: you got to address that emotion.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: You know, we were talking with a couple this morning in one of our couples coaching sessions and one of the partners had said something like, I don’t know if this is the right emotion I should be feeling right now or not.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I kind of cut her off. And I said, Hey, if you’re feeling it. It’s real. Like there’s no right or wrong. There’s no should in a dynamic around. Well, I shouldn’t feel this. So therefore I’ll shut it down.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: One of the worst things you can say in a, in [00:29:00] a relationship is you shouldn’t feel that way, or you don’t feel that, or you didn’t feel that like.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: That to me is way out of balance. Like, well, that’s going down the wrong
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: way. Well, and also things like, how could you even feel that? How could you even think that? I mean, honestly, that’s gaslighting. It’s someone telling you that your reality is not your reality. And you don’t
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: have to agree with how they feel in order to help them deal with it and help them let go of it.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I think about
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: agreeing.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: No. And I think that’s one of the disconnects. So many couples have a feeling unseen is they don’t like what their partner’s feeling. And so they’re dismissing it either. They wouldn’t respond in that way, or they don’t like that. That’s the reaction their partner is having. So they can’t have room to just hear them.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: so I think we have to work to radically accept our partner’s emotions, whether or not we agree with them. It doesn’t matter.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Right. Yeah, I think that’s really, really. So much of the barrier to communication is, you know, if, if I would have gotten angry with you for the things you were [00:30:00] feeling sensitive over,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: how’s
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: that going to ever help if I honor what you’re feeling hurt by or what is, you know, coming up as a sensitivity, then you’re going to feel acknowledged.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And one of the things I think a lot of men do, and I guess women can do it also. I just see it more with men is that narrative of. Oh, she’s so needy. And had I believed the narrative, your narrative, that you told me that you were needy. Again, takes us down the wrong path, right? Because then it’s a really quick and easy jump to, Oh my God, she’s being emotional again.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Right? Oh my God. Here we go. Here come the waterworks, right? And the eye roll and the impatience and the dismissiveness and dismissing it. And then you feel unheard, unseen, invalidated, and then the resentment builds
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: well. And we love that quote of if it’s hysterical, it’s historical. So if anyone is.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Disproportionately reacting with emotion, understand there’s something there. [00:31:00] Came along before your argument or your hurt with your partner, right? Like the bigger the reaction, the longer you’ve been holding it inside your body as a wound. So one of the things that, you know, when I first start doing work with couples, one of my favorite questions to ask on the get go is, do you know your partner’s deepest wounds insecurities or sensitivities?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I love that question because it helps give me insight into how aware they are. Of their partner’s inner emotional world from a painful standpoint. Ideally, we know our partner’s deepest wounds and insecurities, and we do our very fucking best to not activate them, but especially when there’s challenge to not hit below the belt to say what’s going on there.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I would say about 50 percent of the time couples do know their partner’s deepest wounds and insecurities or fears or doubts or, or, you know, sensitive spots. [00:32:00] And 50 percent kind of don’t have any idea. So that’s a great place to start. If you guys find, you know, you are getting stuck in communication challenges in which you’re getting hurt, begin by exploring, do I even know what’s at the root of my own sensitivities or pain?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And do I have an idea of what my partners is?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Well, and can I bring it up?
Supporting Each Other’s Needs
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: A little bit more to the surface to a lighter level because one of the things we talked about with this couple today was my need to nap. And you know, it’s, it’s one of the ways that I restore, I find rejuvenating. It’s a reset for me and I’ve done it all my life.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And actually it’s from my, my family of origin. And when I was married, my now ex wife would get upset with me for napping. I don’t really know why, but that was she probably
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: had a to do list of things. You should have been doing
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: the dynamic with that. She was upset with me and [00:33:00] being in relationship with you.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: It’s 180 degrees different because you’re very supportive of it. Knowing that by giving me permission to nap and rest. You get a better version of me when I wake up. And I think it’s one of the things we’re really, really good about is encouraging each other to rest. I don’t see that in couples very much at all.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: No, I’ve seen with clients of mine where one gets up early for work with like this particular one I’m thinking of was one was in the fitness industry and the other person he was Self employed as a consultant and really had time as his own structure for his workday. And he liked to get up and watch the today show and drink his coffee and read the news.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And she was up at 5 AM and then would rail on him for like, you’re being so lazy. And he’s like I don’t have to be up at 5 AM for work. And I created a business life in which I got to create my structure of my morning. [00:34:00] So. Why are you getting mad at me for what works for me?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: When I like it in our life, I like it when you get up slowly and that’s your preference.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Right. And so I support you in getting up slowly because I know that works well for you,
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: right? Yeah, I don’t, I can’t just shut off and go to bed and I can’t wake up and just pop out of bed. I need some downtime at night to unwind and I need some time to wind up in the
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: morning on accepting those individual differences.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Is key.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. You know, and I even have an example from about two hours ago, I were, we’re in the midst of, you know, moving in together, John’s moving into my house and this requires a lot of
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: our house.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Oh, thank you. John’s moving into our house. I know I’ve been correcting him when he says my house. So thank you for that correction.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It is our house. And I got this bug up my ass to go deep dive into some cleaning out of the garage earlier, and it wasn’t on the agenda for the day. And [00:35:00] in the midst of it, John had said, I’m going to go inside and go ice my back. And that could have been one of those moments where couples in another dynamic would have gotten like, you know, If
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I’m working, you need to be working.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I, I’m not taking a break right now. What gives you the right to go take a break? Well, why would I micromanage what I know John needs to do to take care of his back which often gets sore? That would not serve anything. If I were to judge that, criticize that the best thing I can do is support that. And we don’t see a lot of couples supporting that level of self care, whether it’s a nap, taking a break, icing your back.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And that’s also having the courage to speak up for your needs, because it could have been very easy for you to feel. Oh shit. She’s in this deep dive. I’ve got to help her out here. I don’t want to tell her how I’m feeling that I need to go take a break. What if she were to get mad?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Well, and prior to that, you know, we had talked about recording it too, right after my client and I come downstairs and I [00:36:00] find, Oh, she’s in whirlwind mode.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: She’s cleaning out the garage. And so rather than like challenging that, I just went with it and tried to help you out as much as I could. And I appreciated. I didn’t feel like doing that.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I didn’t feel like doing
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: it either today, just kind of. I was tired, my back was sore, and I was like. Well, I guess this is what we’re doing right now for a couple hours.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I think that’s a very simple everyday real life example of can we be flexible? Can we support where our partners at? Can we not judge? Can we not criticize? Can we speak up for what we’re feeling and what we’re needing? And then can we respond effectively to that? I don’t see couples doing it. I, I, I really don’t.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And that example of the garage today, or you taking a nap is little things, but it’s those little things that we need to do on a daily basis to feel like, Oh, my partner sees me. When is the time [00:37:00] to challenge it? But when is the time to support it? And you know, it starts with the awareness of knowing what you’re feeling and then having the courage to communicate it and then receiving it well.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And part of it is emotional awareness and empathy. Like, I knew when I saw you in the garage, I was like, Oh, like, She’s a little bit spun.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And I, you were frustrated.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I was,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: and I was trying
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: to solve a bigger problem and it just became a bigger problem.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Became more problems. And so I decided To just try and pitch in and do what I could.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. And I greatly appreciated that. And so I guess, you know, I mean, there’s a lot of things that we talked about in this episode that I think are really, really valuable.
Recap and Final Thoughts
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So to recap, some of it, the biggest one I
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: think Naps are important
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: to recap. I don’t like naps, but I don’t judge John’s naps. The, the power of expressing your anger and the power of receiving your partner’s anger.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Now this is a [00:38:00] bigger question and maybe we’ll have to go in deeper into this of when you can’t receive it because it’s really getting to a point where it’s getting derailed and what are the guardrails around communicating anger. So perhaps, you know, you and your partner can. Talk about, wow, how do we talk about our anger?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Like, let’s be a conversation. How do we talk about our anger? What are some guardrails we want to put on it? I don’t think you and I have ever named called an anger. I think that’s a no go zone because those are things you just can’t take that
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: pretty good about not kitchen sinking.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I think, yeah, absolutely.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Kind of keep it to what’s in front of you. And. As I named earlier about knowing your partner’s deepest wounds or insecurities, do your best not to hit below the belt. Like really just own your emotion versus inflict pain on your partner. There’s a difference.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And then also, I think, you know, the idea of learning what your needs are, identifying what your needs are, and they can be a variety of things.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I need a hug. Can we have sex tonight? I need some food. I need some time alone. I need some time together. Like there’s all sorts of different needs that we have, but to [00:39:00] have the courage to practice stating them. And seeing how your partner responds, but then also if your partner is trying to share their needs with you to really work on receiving them well,
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: and,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: and being understanding and compassionate and giving.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. This seems so simple and it’s really much more complex work, I think, within couples. And then especially you, you know, the challenge is finding a time to even talk about this, right? I mean, most couples don’t do check ins. Most couples are having transactional conversations, especially when it comes to, you know, if you’re in the stage of raising kids and taking care of so many of the domestic.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Duties and chores and, and careers and families. I mean, it’s, it’s a lot. So while there’s not easy time to attend to this, I would say it’s critical to attend to it. If you want a [00:40:00] more connected relationship, which I’ve never met anyone who doesn’t want to feel connected. I mean, I’m sure there are people who really don’t desire it, but at some level, if you’re in a relationship.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: My guess is you want to have some sort of connection and this is what is one of the ways to really deepen and create more authenticity is when you allow and give permission for any emotion to be real, valid, and true without criticism or judgment and have more conversation about how you feel.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: That’s a good summary.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I think it’s a good summary.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And that’s it for this episode of love isn’t enough. So stay curious on your journey.