Stress Less During The Holidays – Podcast #6
Holiday Stress Is Real – Don’t Let It Wreck Your Relationship
Let’s face it — the holidays can be a full-on circus of stress, and when you’re juggling family drama, endless to-do lists, and way too much sugar, it’s easy to snap at the person you love most. In this episode of Love Isn’t Enough, Joree and John get real about how that pressure cooker vibe can lead to fights you didn’t mean to have.
They break down the usual couple landmines and serve up practical tools for staying sane and staying connected. Think: less “just calm down” (which never works, BTW), and more ways to actually hear each other and communicate like grownups.
Bonus: they even role-play those all-too-familiar arguments — then show you what a healthier convo sounds like, where both people walk away feeling heard, not steamrolled.
If you tend to get caught in the holiday chaos and want to keep your relationship from going off the rails, this one’s a must-listen.
Stress Less During Holidays w/ Joree Rose, LMFT & Dr. John Schinnerer – Transcript
Joree Rose: Hey, and welcome back to Love Isn’t Enough here with Joree and John. And today we are to talk about the holidays and what is supposed to be a joyful time. Often really isn’t a joyful time for a lot of couples and families.
Dr. John Schinnerer: The holidays,
Joree Rose: the hell-idays.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Wow. You’re quick on your double hockey sticks.
Joree Rose: Look at that.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, holidays.
Joree Rose, LMFT: The holidays.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah.
Joree Rose, LMFT: unhappy holidays,
Expectations and Attachments
Dr. John Schinnerer: The holidays are rife with expectations. We all have expectations about how they should go, what we’re gonna get, how people should treat us, and the holidays often fall short of those expectations, which is the surest path to suffering and misery.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. Expectations will always get in our way of being fully present, experiencing joy. So I guess right off the bat we can just be curious [00:01:00] around what attachments. Do people have around the holidays? Right? Because the attachments and expectations, right? Attachment to an outcome is gonna be another area that’s gonna be one of those quickest paths to suffering.
Conflicts in Couples
Joree Rose, LMFT: But specifically for couples, like each person might have their idea of what they think it’s gonna look like, what they want it to be, and then there’s gonna be all the unknowns that interfere and get in the way. But it also causes a lot of arguments and fights among couples.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Mm-hmm. Well, and I think we get attached to the I this odd idea that.
Dr. John Schinnerer: My way of doing it is. Right, right. And and I think that like we have the emotional attachment to being with our family, the family in which we grew up in, and those traditions. And we have to create plenty of room for a. Partners, right? Traditions and their family, right? And this often leads to conflict.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So whether you’re a newly formed family unit, whether early in your marriage or like in our situation to have more of a blended [00:02:00] family dynamic, or, I have clients over the years who’ve been together 10, 15, 20, 25 years in which there is still conflict over how do we do this?
Joree Rose, LMFT: How do we do this while staying connected? Because that’s the whole goal of love isn’t enough, is how can we honor what’s arising each of our needs, our differences, our values, our beliefs, without it causing disconnection, strife, anger, resentment, hurt.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, as you mentioned prior to us hitting record, I think a lot of this does fall into that 66% of.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Conflicts that are unresolvable, right? Because there’s no clear right answer here. It’s not about, a right answer in terms of who we spend time with or what traditions we create or what traditions we port over. and so I think it’s largely about how we communicate around it? How do we,
Joree Rose, LMFT: how do we hear each other, how do
Dr. John Schinnerer: we hear the emotions that are behind the words?
Dr. John Schinnerer: One of the things I realized after I got divorced was [00:03:00] I was really attached to a specific date for the holiday. For instance, Christmas occurs on December 25th.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Thanksgiving, I think is the fourth Thursday in November. Right. And what I realized after being divorced is it doesn’t have to be on that date, right? Like I got really flexible and like Christmas can be on the 24th or the 26th. It’s, it’s more about the people that you’re with mm-hmm. And what you’re doing.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And if you can keep the traditions that you enjoyed on those days, it’s fine. it’s just, it’s a matter of how we think about it. Right. And us getting attached to a specific date, which really, you know, the date is not that important.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Excuse me.
Dr. John Schinnerer: the big scheme of things,
Joree Rose, LMFT: And let’s lead with this idea so many years ago.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Dropping my kid off at elementary school, walking across the parking lot and chitchatting with other moms along the way. Who I was friends with. This was an acquaintance [00:04:00] who randomly seemed to yell to me across the school parking lot, just so you know, you’re gonna disappoint someone today.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I kinda like that,
Joree Rose, LMFT: and it became this joke whenever I saw her we’re like.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Go disappoint someone today. it was this acknowledgement of, I can’t make everyone happy.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, I like it.
Joree Rose, LMFT: It’s giving permission. It’s bringing the little humor and lighthearted to it of, oh, who do I get a disappointed versus, oh shit, I have to meet everyone’s needs today.
Dr. John Schinnerer: don’t wanna disappoint anyone.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And truth is, I mean, you and I say this to each other all the time, we’re gonna disappoint each other. It’s impossible. To not disappoint someone, especially someone you love and deeply concerned about not wanting to disappoint them.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And I do think one of the biggest disappointments on holidays is around time and attention
Joree Rose, LMFT: exactly
Dr. John Schinnerer: who you spend
Mental Load and Gender Roles
Joree Rose, LMFT: And so it’s easy, and I’m gonna say especially for women, not to not place equal importance [00:05:00] on how men or fathers feel, but women feel an. Unparalleled sense of pressure to really please everybody. ’cause they’re generally the ones carrying more of the mental load, the physical load of the shopping, the cooking, the gift wrapping, the thinking about all the people to have to do the shopping, the gift wrapping and the cooking for,
Dr. John Schinnerer: yeah.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So I just wanna name. That the mental load that especially women carry is beyond exhausting this time of year.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. It, it’s crazy to me. I mean, just considering everything that, like, everything, the whole Chiron, the, the ticker tape that runs through your head and what you keep track of. Like it, it’s nothing.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I don’t even think I could keep track of all the stuff You keep track of.
Joree Rose, LMFT: My clients and, and you know, holding space for all these. And I just
Dr. John Schinnerer: remember that we have three girls.
Joree Rose, LMFT: There’s nothing wrong with that. Thank you for remembering all three of them. No one left behind. That’s what family means. Isn’t that we just watched in a Lilo and Stitch?
Dr. John Schinnerer: So
Joree Rose, LMFT: this [00:06:00] mental load. I think is something to name as a precursor to decreasing the stress around the holidays, despite who you may or may not disappoint.
Dr. John Schinnerer: and so I think, for if you’re a male listener and you’re in relationship, I think it’s really important to be aware of this concept of mental workload, because you want to do what you can to help support your partner, right? And take as much of the heat off of her as you can assuming heterosexual relationship.
Dr. John Schinnerer: because it’s really uneven. even if you think it’s even, it’s uneven.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Right. Well, and a great resource for this is the book Fair Play by Eve Rodsky. If you don’t have access to it, send us a DM and Instagram at Leva and F 33 and I will send you the PDF that includes a hundred little cards.
Joree Rose, LMFT: You gotta, you know, print it out and cut ’em up. But what Roski does in fair play is helps Youand who’s carrying the weight of the mental [00:07:00] load. so you print out these cards, cut ’em up, and you and your partner sit together and you go through each one of these areas that. Focus on different parts of our lives.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Family, work, gifts, kids cooking, shopping,
Dr. John Schinnerer: kids sports,
Joree Rose, LMFT: right? extended family, doctor appointments, birthdays, all these categories that take up our life. And you look at each one of these little cards and you put in front of you, who holds the mental load, thinking, planning, preparing, executing that task.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Ideally, you go through this and you see that there is largely a disproportion I. Generally the woman’s gonna be holding, and I say ideally because once we can see it tangibly, we can then know how to renegotiate the tasks. Now not all those tasks are gonna apply to everybody, but make up your own, see what’s missing from that list.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So as a very, very starting point, that’s a great place to, to decrease your stress is by figuring out what am I [00:08:00] holding? Because we hold things, the longer we hold ’em, the heavier they are to carry. And oftentimes we’re not communicating to our partner all that we’re holding in our mental look.
Role-Playing Communication
Joree Rose, LMFT: So John, let’s just say I share with you, let’s role play for a second.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Let’s role model how to have that conversation. If I were to share with you the extent of my mental load.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Okay.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Because it could be really easy for someone to share it.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Do you wanna do this properly or screw it up?
Joree Rose, LMFT: We could screw it up first and then play it again of what we, we should, what we quote should be doing with our partners.
Joree Rose, LMFT: But often people really get dismissed. So if I were to you to come to say, oh my God, love, I am so overwhelmed I used to host Thanksgiving and would have like 26 people over, and it would take me five days in preparation, not including the, the shopping, which usually start a week in advance, setting the tables, doing all the side dishes.
Joree Rose, LMFT: All the preparation. I loved it, and it was a lot.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Mm-hmm.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So [00:09:00] let’s pretend I’m talking about Thanksgiving dinner. Okay. Okay. So if I say, oh my God, love, I am so stressed and overwhelmed, I have so much to get done by Thursday. I don’t know why I took this all on. It feels like too much.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I know I love the outcome, but I can’t function right now.
Dr. John Schinnerer: why did you even volunteer to do it? every year we go through the same thing and every year it stresses you out.
Joree Rose, LMFT: But I love doing this and I actually, I don’t wanna do it at someone else’s house ’cause my food is better. this has been my tradition.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Like people know like, oh my God, we get to go to juries for Thanksgiving and we get to have those goat cheese stuffed grapes, which are the best
Dr. John Schinnerer: You take on too much and then you get overwhelmed and stressed. And then you get irritable with me.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, why can’t you just support me?
Dr. John Schinnerer: I am supporting you.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Okay, guys, does that sound familiar? That was good. Well, well done on that role play. I think that’s what we hear a lot.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I was trying to fix it.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, what went wrong there? you were trying to fix it. I felt shame in for doing something that I actually love
Dr. John Schinnerer: kind and thoughtful
Joree Rose, LMFT: An act of service, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, cooking for [00:10:00] me is an act of love. And so I felt dismissed in you not seeing what was important to me in that little role play. What else?
Dr. John Schinnerer: I think we also started to get triggered.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And so we were starting to get annoyed
Joree Rose, LMFT: and it got into a, you always do this.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Mm-hmm. So that it’s this. Always nevers. In conversation. The goal is to try to stay present
Dr. John Schinnerer: when I was, yeah. I think the biggest one was I was trying to fix you.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, and my sense was you got annoyed that I was dealing with my self-imposed pressure.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Mm-hmm.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So I think that
Dr. John Schinnerer: because your self-imposed pressure negatively impacts me.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Right.
Dr. John Schinnerer: It’s about how you’re doing, impacts me.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, and let’s take that a step further. It would impact you a, because I’m stressed and overwhelmed, so my energy would probably be negative and a little bit distant
Dr. John Schinnerer: You might have less energy
Joree Rose, LMFT: I might not have an energy any attention take
Dr. John Schinnerer: made that night
Joree Rose, LMFT: energy or attention to give to you, including being available to make love. Mm-hmm.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I am.
Dr. John Schinnerer: [00:11:00] That’s exactly what’s on.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I honor what your wishes are.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Your Christmas is coming up.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I validate your desires. I’m trying to validate you.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I think I know what you’re gonna be next Halloween,
Joree Rose, LMFT: so I always Tinkerbell.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah,
Joree Rose, LMFT: I think this simple dynamic of, oh my God, I’m so stressed, becomes where I would be seeking comfort and a soft place to land. You turned into shaming of my actions or my intentions or even what’s important to me. And I
Dr. John Schinnerer: think that’s a typical way that this conversation goes for most couples.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Right? And so if we were to continue that. I would probably be like, okay, well fine. I I’m not gonna tell you how I feel and I don’t need any of your help. I’ll just do it all on my own.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And then you get angry, resentful, and you do it to some extent outta spite.
Joree Rose, LMFT: If you tell me take on less.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And then Deb,
Joree Rose, LMFT: I’m a bit stubborn. I would probably take on more at that point just to show you I could,
Dr. John Schinnerer: I’m gonna help you less likely.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Right.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Right.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And I don’t feel seen.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Mm-hmm.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And what [00:12:00] would you need acknowledgement of in that moment? Is there something in that dynamic that you would need acknowledged perhaps? Can I speak for you as you Sure. As you question that? I think what is not being acknowledged in that dynamic is how my stress impacts our relationship or you.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Mm-hmm.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So my stress becomes all encompassing of. Self-referential to, I’m more important right now.
Co-Regulation and Support
Dr. John Schinnerer: to me, that whole scenario that we came up with is about helping you co-regulate, like helping you to regulate your own emotions and helping to dial down that stress.
Dr. John Schinnerer: So it, it really, in my mind’s, less about me. Mm-hmm. And how it affects me.
Joree Rose, LMFT: well, but if that dynamic still, like, I’m
Dr. John Schinnerer: I’m gonna be self-referential in
Joree Rose, LMFT: that dynamic, we weren’t getting to that point of co-regulation ’cause that wasn’t regulating for me.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Sure.
Joree Rose, LMFT: But is there something you would’ve felt that I didn’t acknowledge?
Dr. John Schinnerer: I could have felt annoyed at a high If you had a high degree of stress there.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Mm-hmm.
Dr. John Schinnerer: [00:13:00] about something that you chose to take on.
Joree Rose, LMFT: that’s most women’s lives, period. I have a high degree of stress about the things I chose to take on.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I’ve taken on too much. I’m overwhelmed and it’s not even, life has given me too much to take on.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, and because a lot
Dr. John Schinnerer: of it’s not choice.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, for some relationships,
Dr. John Schinnerer: It was years ago when the kids were born.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Right? Well, and some relationships are set up in such a way in which, even though men are socialized to be more self-reliant, I’ve seen a lot of couples, and I’ve experienced it myself, where I learned my own self-reliance and a lack of trusting someone’s gonna be there to help me.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So I will take a lot of it on in the belief of I have to do this alone. it’s easier if I just do it
Dr. John Schinnerer: well.
Joree Rose, LMFT: No, not now.
Dr. John Schinnerer: be, an important point in terms of, for the listener, being aware of when things in your life have shifted.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Perhaps a new partner or your partner’s learning new ways of showing up in relationship so that you can change that story.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Right. [00:14:00] But I do know, because there’s two sides to that.
Dr. John Schinnerer: there’s my work and my ability to respond hopefully. And then your work in terms of changing that old narrative.
Joree Rose, LMFT: True. So I think what many women would respond in this sense, and I could still hold the space, that this might be how I feel is. I would love help, but to explain to you what I need is actually gonna take more effort, time, and energy than to just do what what I know is already in my head. And this is this double bind that especially women, we get stuck in because even if our partners responded differently, which will we’ll play in a minute, how it could go in a better dynamic to feel more seen, heard, and validated.
Joree Rose, LMFT: There’s still that idea of, I don’t know how to take on less. Because to share or delegate is actually harder some of the time.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, And the other part of it that I think enters into this is some people’s standards for [00:15:00] what’s acceptable. for those that have a perfectionistic streak, it’s gonna take more time and energy to explain how to do it and what needs to be done to someone else.
Dr. John Schinnerer: But then there’s that thought of, well. They’re not gonna do it as good as I would anyway. Right. So it’s better if I just do it myself, which that’s that aspect of it, I would argue, is a little bit self-defeating.
Joree Rose, LMFT: It’s rewarding in the end. I really like it in the end. But even when I’m stressing in the process.
Dr. John Schinnerer: How much do you like it when, like, we were barbecuing together at the end of summer and we were, Coco co-creating, some fantastic meals. And, but that’s
Joree Rose, LMFT: I don’t think I can barbecue better, so I wasn’t giving up a strength of mine and handing the baton because, well, and, and let’s talk about that piece because I love to cook.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I’m a good cook. I’m not trying to, no, she is a amazing cook. I’m a good cook. And to me, cooking truly is how I show my love. There’ve been times [00:16:00] where I’ve stopped cooking for people as an act of resistance. True story feels kind of mean, but it was a boundary, and I think you had a perception of, I’m controlling of my kitchen and who’s allowed to be in there.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So the barbecue being inserted into our life this summer gave you a space in the kitchen that you had domain over. Now. I could have easily given you other domains ’cause we’ve been co-creating in the kitchen much differently anyway. I think ’cause I saw a desire from you more than I ever had and so it was less about a sense of control per se.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And I truly love it. Like this is the dilemma and especially women who like, love the holidays and what they can do and yet were taken on too much and shutting down in the meantime. And then it gets to the point of the actual holiday and all the prep work made me exhausted. I can’t even enjoy it. Some of that time happens.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I don’t need to do it seven days a week.
Joree Rose, LMFT: right? So back to this dynamic. How do we shift [00:17:00] out of what we’ve been doing that we know isn’t working? It’s hard to have that self-awareness to be able to recognize, oh, this actually isn’t working the way I’ve always done it.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Can I be open to finding a new way?
Dr. John Schinnerer: So are you bringing that back to the conversation?
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer: The French maid outfit.
Joree Rose, LMFT: No, not the French maid outfit.
Dr. John Schinnerer: let’s try it.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Okay. do you have your good responses ready? I have,
Dr. John Schinnerer: I’ve got a couple here.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I’ve got a couple too. Okay. All right. Ready? Okay. Let’s go. Oh my God, love. I am so stressed. I have so much to do before Thanksgiving. I can’t believe how much I’ve taken on yet Again, I, I just dunno what to do about it.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Wow, sweetheart, I’m really sorry. It sounds like you’re really stressed and overwhelmed.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I am so stressed
Dr. John Schinnerer: Is there anything I can do to take some of that off your plate?
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, that’s really hard ’cause I love doing all this and I don’t know what tasks I can assign to you. thank you for offering that feels really loving. Thank you for seeing how stressed and overwhelmed I are, because in the past you used to just judge and shame me for that.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So thank [00:18:00] you for acknowledging that. That feels really good. thank you for seeing me.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Absolutely. how can I best support you right now?
Joree Rose, LMFT: Can I have a back massage?
Dr. John Schinnerer: Sure.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And then a foot massage.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Sure.
Joree Rose, LMFT: ’cause I just, I think I just need some downtime.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I’m happy to support that and I. If there’s anything I can do to help you out amidst the chaos, I’m happy to do that as well.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So maybe I don’t have to do all the food shopping. I can give you a list of specific things and then like if you happened to buy the wrong kind of apples, I’m not judging you just know like it’s not shaming that you didn’t do it perfect, but I’m kind of attached to how certain things are.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So I would love some help, but I might have a little bit of trouble in. Giving up a little bit of that control.
Dr. John Schinnerer: questions at the store,
Joree Rose, LMFT: Okay. So you can be patient with me because I don’t wanna shut you down from your efforts. ’cause in the past if you offered to help and then it wasn’t perfect, you might be like, why bother?
Dr. John Schinnerer: butt hurt.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. So you’re okay if I give feedback for the future?
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yes.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Oh, that would be super helpful.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And so, I mean, that’s a way I, I [00:19:00] think that’s a good example of how I love that, doing it better so that you felt. Seen, heard and validated. Right? And, and that’s the goal. The goal is to hear the emotion behind the words and to call it out to the best extent of your ability.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And sometimes, you know, I would call this out to, to Jory and I would get, revision. So I would say something like, wow, I can see where you’re really frustrated. And she’d be like, I’m not frustrated, I’m resentful. Like, well, shit, it was kind of in the anger family.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Right.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Because if she’s feeling resentful and not frustrated, then okay, fine.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And that, I think you used to take that as not acknowledging your attempt to see me just because you didn’t get it spot on with the right thing. I wanted to then be able to respond accurately, even though I appreciated the intention of understanding where I was at.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I think we’re much better at that now.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, I do
Joree Rose, LMFT: And so in absence of knowing or making an assumption, ask a question,
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And that default to that question of how can I support [00:20:00] you right now? It actually in and of itself is sometimes all the support someone needs. I also love that what, you know, kind of referring to as a three Hs, do you need a hug?
Joree Rose, LMFT: Do you need some help or do you just need me to hear you? Right? Do you just need me to listen? Because sometimes I just wanna vent. Have the permission to just get it off my chest and that’s a stress relief. Sometimes I’m looking for help in actual, like what do I do different? ’cause I keep getting stuck.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And for the male listener out there, be aware that our default tendency is to try and fix things. That’s how we’ve been socialized. And we make a grave mistake. when we continually try and fix things for our spouse. Because the message that we’re sending there repeatedly is you’re not capable enough to deal with this on your own.
Dr. John Schinnerer: You’re not smart enough, you’re not good enough. And I really like that question of, you know, how can I best support you? Do you want me to just listen? Do you want a hug or do you want me to try and fix [00:21:00] it? Because 90, 95% of the time, the other person’s gonna say, I just need you to listen. But then it becomes like, I’ve talked to a lot of male clients who are like, she told me to just listen.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Then I really struggled with just listening because I would pick up her whatever, anger, sadness, discomfort, pain, suffering, and like, again, it prompted me to try and fix it.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, in that point, are you trying to fix your own regulation or Mine?
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Well, your own discomfort. My own discomfort, yeah. Right.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And so it, but it’s, I think it’s an interesting bit of awareness, right? Sure. That that’s often what comes back. Right.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Right. And in an ideal world, and we talked about this, early on in our relationship where we realized, you know, kind of the fucked up message that the line from Jerry Maguire gave many couples of You complete me.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Because it implies that we’re not whole on our own It does sound romantic. Especially when the couple in the elevator did it in sign language. It was beautiful. and ideally we’re whole and complete and our relationship isn’t augment to our [00:22:00] wholeness. And what we realize is actually feeling more accurate is where love is an expression of co-regulation.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And so what does that mean? It means when we are stressed, overwhelmed, anxious, our nervous system is activated, we’re turned on that fight, flight, freeze. We feel it in our body. Tension, tightness, you know, pit in the stomach. That’s our being dysregulated. Ideally, our partner can counterbalance that to help us regulate and calm our nervous system down.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And really what we’re talking about is having our partner be a source of a safe and secure attachment. You are a safe landing for which I can fall regardless of what I have going on, and I can trust that you’re there to catch me. So when you shame the stress, that’s not a safe landing, right? So the co-regulation is staying calm.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So that by proxy you can calm down my nervous system.
Understanding Co-Regulation in Relationships
Joree Rose, LMFT: Your compassion can [00:23:00] help calm my nervous system. Your kindness or offered to help can help calm me down. And so that’s the co-regulation. we used to say to each other instead of, I love you, that’s so cheesy, but we’re like total emotion geeks.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. So we could like replace an I Love You statement with. I co-regulate you
Dr. John Schinnerer: when you co-regulate me.
Joree Rose, LMFT: We’re really cheesy.
Role-Playing Family Conflicts
Dr. John Schinnerer: We are geeks and I, so let’s do a role play with we’re a couple. I hate your family. You hate my family, and we’ve gotta figure out who we’re gonna hang out with on
Joree Rose, LMFT: the holidays.
Dr. John Schinnerer: but it could be Hanukkah, right?
Joree Rose, LMFT: Hanukkah’s easy. there’s no pressure, so it’s a Christmas issue. Yeah,
Dr. John Schinnerer: I’m not used to that one, so, yeah.
Joree Rose, LMFT: See, we inherently built in equality for all family members. If you can’t fit it in eight nights, then you’ve got other, that’s you.
Dr. John Schinnerer: this scenario is one that we’ve seen with many couples, where, we get a story going about our in-laws and the negative impact that they have on, my spouse or my family [00:24:00] and how they’re over involved.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And, all that might be true, And they’re still your in-laws and you gotta find a way to coexist.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, and then on top of. What you just named is if it’s not the in-laws that you’re sensing as the problem, sometimes there is an enmeshment with your own family of origin. Mm-hmm. And you don’t know how to balance your needs of your traditions that you grew up and that you love and feel so good about.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Coupled with now creating the new traditions with your family, procreation, which is your partner and kids.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And so one might be a resentment of the in-laws. either way can cause dysregulation and arguments in the couple.
Invitation, Request, and Demand Dynamics
Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, and the idea of invitation request demand might be applicable to this.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. In the sense of, you know, for those of you who haven’t heard this before, an invitation is, Hey honey, would you like to go with me to the movies on Friday night? And she’s free you to say yes or no. There’s no emotional [00:25:00] blow back. There’s no consequences for saying no,
Joree Rose, LMFT: You should be okay with a yes no answer, right?
Dr. John Schinnerer: There’s no attachment to the outcome. It’s completely a hundred percent an invite. A request, on the other hand is I’m asking you to do this with me and for me, because it’s important to me, even though you may not be crazy about the idea. So for example.
Joree Rose, LMFT: the real life example, I asked John years ago to come with me to a bat mitzvah.
Dr. John Schinnerer: This bat mitzvah at this particular temple is three hours of Hebrew.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, that’s what bar and bat mitzvahs are, but this one was especially longer.
Dr. John Schinnerer: is very long.
Joree Rose, LMFT: It was long. I’ll give you that.
Joree Rose, LMFT: However, it was an important, family friend that I had known for many, many years and I had a partner. And so when I got an invitation, you’re my inherent plus one. And so I said, oh, and we also couldn’t go to the reception ’cause we had Elton John tickets for that night. So it was only going to this very long service of which I’m Jewish.
Joree Rose, LMFT: John’s not so sitting [00:26:00] in a three hour service in which something he has no connection or relation to.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I don’t understand Hebrew
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, no one actually understands that you just do it. That’s just part, you just say it. You don’t, no one actually knows what they’re saying. Oh, okay. Except for the rabbis.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Okay. So long story short, I said, Hey, do you want to come to this bat mitzvah with me? He said No, and I was, but hurt because in my mind it was a formality that I even asked you.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, part of what I was thinking was I was playing around with this newly learned idea of invitation and request.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So, I was really hurt.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Mm-hmm.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And a couple days later, I come back to him and I’m like, Hey, John. As soon as I said that, I think he knew exactly where I was going and he, I said, I think I asked you the wrong question the other day. do you remember what you said? I do.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Oh shit.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yes. You are like, oh, I see.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And then before I could even name what the request was, you then said, [00:27:00] can we put a limit on how many requests there are per year? Because. I think you recognize it’s really kind of an asshole move to turn on a request.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So I had said, Hey, John, it would be, it would be really meaning, it would mean a lot to me if you came to me to this bat mitzvah and here are the reasons why. And there was like some very solid reasons of why it was important for. Me to have you there with me and once you heard my values under the question you were like, of course I’ll be there.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Does it mean you liked it? I didn’t ask you to like it.
Dr. John Schinnerer: No,
Joree Rose, LMFT: I didn’t ask you to enjoy it. I just asked you to show up and you did. And I have been really mindful of making sure my requests are worthy of not overdoing the request.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Exactly. and so I think there’s a balance on both sides.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Of course. When there’s a meaningful request from your partner, ideally you say. Absolutely I’ll be there because it’s important to you. Right? And I don’t think you wanna abuse the requests. [00:28:00]
Joree Rose, LMFT: You don’t wanna have a daily request habit. I don’t because now we’ve lost the importance of utilizing values as a reason for asking our partner to meet our needs.
Dr. John Schinnerer: then just to flesh out the idea demand. It isn’t really used all that frequently, but you can think of it as, you know, if your child’s run out in the street, you know, get outta the street, there’s a car coming, or if you’ve got a partner that’s an alcoholic, if you don’t stop drinking, I’m leaving you.
Joree Rose, LMFT: or you’re coming to this bat mitzvah whether you like it or not.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, that would’ve been
Joree Rose, LMFT: a demand to finish out that same conversation.
Dr. John Schinnerer: well,
Joree Rose, LMFT: well, and how often do couples just blatantly tell their partners what they’re doing without their buy-in or their voice?
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah,
Joree Rose, LMFT: So I would say the demands actually happen more often than we probably realize.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Well, I guess in the. Unhealthy couple or unskilled couple.
Joree Rose, LMFT: most couples don’t have the skill to know that that actually isn’t relational.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Mm.
Joree Rose, LMFT: It might just think, you’re my partner. You’re doing what I say. Now that doesn’t feel very good, but then we wonder why couples are disconnected and unhappy.
Navigating Holiday Traditions and Family Expectations
Joree Rose, LMFT: [00:29:00] So coming back to this idea of, okay, so we’ve gone through the I’m stressed role model of how to name it and how to do it better. Let’s go to the next one.
Dr. John Schinnerer: What’s the next one?
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, the one that you brought up.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Oh, okay.
Effective Communication Strategies
Dr. John Schinnerer: so to begin, I think, it’s a really good idea to use the soft startup. So catch your partner at a good time when they’re not tired or drunk or stressed or just got home from work, right? Like, you want to give yourself the best shot of them hearing you in a good mood.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer: and so. The soft startup is, Hey honey, I have something important to talk to you about. Is now a good time? And it’s an invitation. They’re free to say yes or no. If they say no. Okay, then one would be a good time to talk. Mm-hmm. And it might be several days later. ’cause I know, you know, there’s a lot of younger clients that we deal with that have young kids.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And it might be you wait till Saturday or Sunday to have an opening to talk about this. Right. And then after that, you wanna start as gently as possible. [00:30:00] And ideally, you know, one of the things you always say is start with gratitude. Hey, you know, I really appreciate you doing this. thank you so much for doing this.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And can we talk about where we’re gonna go on Christmas morning? Because that’s really important to me. And you know, maybe it’s something like, we go to my parents on Christmas morning this year and we go to your parents on Christmas morning next year,
Joree Rose, LMFT: right? So let’s role play
Dr. John Schinnerer: Okay.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So go.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Hey, honey, I wanna go to my parents for Christmas.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Why don’t you like my parents?
Dr. John Schinnerer: because they’re over involved. They’re hovering their brain. I think they’re trying to brainwash our kids.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, your parents are always getting in the way.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I mean, can I ever just have a time when I don’t have to go to their house for what you want?
Dr. John Schinnerer: What’s the matter with my parents?
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, what’s the matter with mine?
Dr. John Schinnerer: I told you.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, I, yours don’t make me feel included. Why would I wanna be somewhere where I don’t feel like I’m seen?
Dr. John Schinnerer: never excluded you.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Have they ever asked, how are you, do they even know anything about me?
Dr. John Schinnerer: I think they did back in 1985.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I was seven then.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, I was 17. [00:31:00]
Joree Rose, LMFT: I love to throw in our age difference in there. Okay. But also what happened in that dynamic was the initial request got completely dismissed in an argument about.
Joree Rose, LMFT: the other families.
Dr. John Schinnerer: cause I think I attacked your parents first.
Joree Rose, LMFT: You did. And then I went back to attack yours. So I think that’s really easy where it can become a tit for tat with different dynamics versus actually hearing the initial thing. I couldn’t even come up with good arguments.
Joree Rose, LMFT: It was hard.
Dr. John Schinnerer: are, these are arguments that we’ve heard. Oh, a hundred percent. from clients
Joree Rose, LMFT: and, you know, I,
Dr. John Schinnerer: I dunno if we’re doing them justice,
Joree Rose, LMFT: oh, I mean, and also we didn’t really plan this, it was kind of off the cuff, so we didn’t really script out what would be the best things to say is that example of a bad argument.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And I think attacking each other’s families is a pretty good way to go that we see. In terms of this tit for tattiness that couples feel entitled to. Well, if you don’t like mine, I’m gonna say something bad about yours. Well,
Dr. John Schinnerer: it’s funny ’cause I can actually feel my [00:32:00] physiology go up. Yeah. Like I actually get activated
Joree Rose, LMFT: imagine if you actually had the emotion underneath. It would’ve been even higher.
Dr. John Schinnerer: so now you want to recreate it.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Do the positive version
Joree Rose, LMFT: or the healthy one?
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. hey honey. I have something important to talk to you about. Is now a good time? Sure. So I wanted to talk about ideas for what we can do Christmas morning, because I know you like to go to your parents on Christmas morning. I’d like to see if we can find some way to fairly distribute our time and attention among our. Prospective families during the holidays.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Hey Leva, I really appreciate you bringing it to me in this way. It feels different than how we used to talk about this.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So right off the bat, I’m grateful for how you entered into this conversation. So thank you. this is really hard for me ’cause I am really used to doing it a certain way and change around. This feels really sad. Like I, I’m feeling sad as I talk about having to change these traditions that I’ve always done.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I don’t really know what to do with that sadness, [00:33:00] and I really wanna respect what you’re asking. I’m just feeling really sad about it.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Like I get that there might be some grief over losing some traditions or losing some time with your parents on an important holiday.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I get that. Yeah, I’m like, I almost like, I wanna cry right now. I don’t wanna give that up. And what if we didn’t always have to go either or, what if we just started a new tradition of our own family at home all day on Christmas? Can we maybe look at that as an option and maybe it might upset our parents and maybe we’re ruining their traditions, but I’m constantly feeling torn of the two traditions and where do we go to create ours?
Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, I think it’s a really good point, and I have no problem with being all within our. New nuclear family on Christmas day, and then we still have to figure out when are we gonna see the parents, right? And, and I, I’m not attached to, you know, could be one set on the 24th, could be one set on the 26th. I don’t know what their plans are, you know, if they’re scheduling a big dinner
Joree Rose, LMFT: because here not
Dr. John Schinnerer: many options.
Joree Rose, LMFT: I’m stuck with is I feel like I’m gonna disappoint a lot of [00:34:00] people and at the end I don’t wanna be disappointed. So is it selfish for me to not. Worry as much about how they’re gonna feel about this.
Joree Rose, LMFT: how do I navigate their emotions? Because now we’ve got two sets of parents on either side who are likely gonna be unhappy at some capacity, and now I’m gonna feel extra stress. thinking about that makes me stressed out. Now my sadness has gone, now I’m distressed.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And I don’t think it’s selfish to have needs.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I don’t think it’s selfish to wanna create your own traditions. I think that we can set some boundaries with our parents, and yeah, they might be disappointed. They might be a little bit upset, and honestly, that’s their work.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And you know, your parents obviously are emotionally immature, so they’re gonna get angrier about this.
Joree Rose, LMFT: No, you assume your, oh, John went so good until you threw that dig.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Sorry, I just, okay.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Role play done.
Dr. John Schinnerer: So it was done until last end scene.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Love to cut off
Dr. John Schinnerer: the last 15 seconds
Joree Rose, LMFT: but I think, okay, so what did we do there, [00:35:00] Weno? Well, first off, I led with gratitude for how you started the conversation because if I lead with that, you’re already gonna feel softer,
Dr. John Schinnerer: regulated
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. So I think that was a great insert of what gratitude looks like. In a really authentic way. Not really cheesy. No, it felt, it felt authentic for me to say, because I act, I actually would say something like that to you. Mm-hmm. Wouldn’t I?
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yes.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. So what else went well there?
Joree Rose, LMFT: We validated what each other was feeling.
Dr. John Schinnerer: We were open to new ideas. we weren’t doggedly attached to one way of doing things.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And I think what we did there is also demonstrate a priority of our family, of
Dr. John Schinnerer: us.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And this is something we see a lot of couples getting stuck in, in which there is such a pull on either side that the new nuclear family, you and your partner and your kids aren’t yet.
Joree Rose, LMFT: This cohesive formed unit entitled to have their own needs or traditions.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. and I think one of the things we talk about with [00:36:00] couples a lot is, you know, in any couple, there’s you, me, and there’s us, right? And that us has to be prioritized as number one. Right. and I think that a lot of times extended family members, the in-laws, for example, or your parents forget that.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer: and you know, again, I think it’s well intentioned. They wanna see you, they wanna celebrate the holidays with you. And yet it’s incredibly important to set up your own traditions and have the time. Attention to spend with your own nuclear family, right? This new unit that you’ve created?
Setting Boundaries with Family
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, and the key to be able to do that is to draw boundaries.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And if you have an enmeshed family of origin in which there’s an emotionally immature parent or parents, boundaries are not gonna be respected. They’re gonna be shamed and judged and criticized. So it can be easy to have that adult child feel really stuck between what’s expected of me and what I actually [00:37:00] want.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And they will inherently be told they’re selfish for having their own needs. So I am not minimizing the impact and power that these ties have to the family of origin. It is not easy work to break some of those enmeshed dynamics Going back to knowing I might disappoint someone today and,
Dr. John Schinnerer: We’ve seen situations where extended family members will manipulate, bribe, threaten to cut people off financially.
Joree Rose, LMFT: can get extreme.
Dr. John Schinnerer: it escalates quickly, which is, I really like that idea of the people that your boundaries piss off the most are the ones that need the boundaries.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. The most. and so I really like it as a litmus test in terms of just playing around with setting boundaries with people. How do they respond? Right? because to me it’s a huge red flag if I set a normal, reasonable, healthy, boundary with someone and they lose their mind mm-hmm.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I’m like, oh, thank you for the information.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah, I
Dr. John Schinnerer: Now I know a lot [00:38:00] about you.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. It’s informative, it’s diagnostic.
Dr. John Schinnerer: concerned with my wellbeing. You can’t respect what I need to do to take care of myself.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, and when we look at values differences, it’s not a matter of I need you to adopt mine. I need you to respect mine,
Dr. John Schinnerer: have to agree with them.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Right? And that’s a great way to go. And we recently did, one of our master classes on, on boundaries and asking for your needs. And this feels like this plays right into this.
Joree Rose, LMFT: We also are aware that these things are much easier said than done, but we just role modeled how we got there, how we role played out, the different dynamics. It’s not gonna be like, oh, I heard Joy and John how to say, how to have this conversation.
Joree Rose, LMFT: A lot of emotional awareness of what’s coming up inside of you. A lot of somatic awareness of, you even said, I’m feeling tension in my body.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Semantic awareness of what words are you using?
Joree Rose, LMFT: Right. And the impact of even, we could even think a thought about these dynamics and hard conversations and our physiology is gonna get activated.
Joree Rose, LMFT: We can be anticipating it.
Coping with Holiday Stress
Joree Rose, LMFT: All of which is to say these are [00:39:00] the dynamics the holidays bring up for people. Mm-hmm. So it’s no wonder, oh yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer: The other part of the holidays then is you gotta layer on all the old shit that happened to you in your past. All the crashed expectations, all the disappointment, all the family fights, all the addicted family members, all the stuff that’s happened in holidays past.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Right.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Mm-hmm.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So I don’t know if we’re leaving our listeners. Feeling more stressed, that they have a way of, of being feeling less stressed right now. So in wrapping up, take a deep breath when having to think about the stress of the holidays.
Joree Rose, LMFT: ’cause at the very least, taking a few deep breaths will help calm your brain and calm your body. Allowing yourself to really be present with what’s actually coming up. acknowledge it is hard and maybe. To have some more self-compassion during this time of the year that, you know what, this is just a hard time of year with a lot to [00:40:00] do, and maybe I can’t fix these problems.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Maybe I can just have more self-compassion in the process.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, and my hope is that this podcast plants a seed in your mind so that if you’re not where you wanna be in terms of communication in your relationship, you can set that as a goal. And so that maybe next year, right, you’ve got better communication skills.
Dr. John Schinnerer: and the other thing I would offer is. please, please, if you can’t already learn how to deeply relax, learn what that feels like so that you have a baseline to go back to. So you know you’re relaxed when you bring up difficult conversations right. With your partner. Because a lot of the men that I work with, I don’t think they even know.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Or they, they haven’t been relaxed for years because they’re just go, go, go, go, go. Right? And that fight flight freeze system is just stuck in the on position. That’s not a great place to live.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Well, and which is why I also specifically gave that response when you said, how can I support you?
Joree Rose, LMFT: I said, can I have a massage? Because that is a way of regulating the nervous system. Yeah. [00:41:00] To give you a. An ability to get a reboot or a restart so your stress is not accumulating. We can allow ourselves to calm down. So you don’t have to like giving you your partner massage to give them the gift of relaxation.
Joree Rose, LMFT: You can get them a gift card to go get a massage. But even while that might have sounded flighty for me, it’s one of the best ways I can relax. So even if I can’t take off what’s on my plate, even if I’ve self-imposed this pressure, I can still find ways of relaxation and regulation in the midst of it.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So it, isn’t getting compounded.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. and I was, I had an experience today. I was driving and you know how. Emotionally managed. I am when I drive.
Joree Rose, LMFT: That’s to say he still needs to work on.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I thought it was interesting to me because I was driving, there was a lot of traffic.
Dr. John Schinnerer: lanes were closed on Ignacio Valley, which that street’s a mess to begin with. And then you close one of the three lanes, it got bad. And you know, at first I would let someone in and then I got cut off. I got cut [00:42:00] off once. I was like, eh, no big deal. Like I’ll let that go. And then something else happened, like I was behind someone doing 20 miles below the speed limit and just let that go.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Not a big deal, but realize these little annoyances are cumulative.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And, I saw this in myself today where I wasn’t like, I was calm and 3, 4, 5, 6 things happened on the road. But then, but you were
Joree Rose, LMFT: calm
Dr. John Schinnerer: Oh, that’s what I meant. My best. But you know, by this, whatever the number is, seventh, eighth, ninth time, then I’m starting to get annoyed.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Mm-hmm. Because these annoyances are cumulative. So be aware that little annoyances accumulate, whatever the context. And I would argue that in the holidays there’s more stressors. Like think about just going to the mall and doing holiday shopping,
Joree Rose, LMFT: Safeway
Dr. John Schinnerer: on December 23rd. right. Or going to the supermarket days before Thanksgiving.
Dr. John Schinnerer: it’s before cost day, before Christmas. Like it’s packed. So these annoyances, accumulate. just be aware of that dynamic and see if you can breathe. Remind yourself to breathe. See if you can have more [00:43:00] self-compassion. See if you can have more compassion for others, and remind yourself that they’re struggling too.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Like they’re dealing with the same overabundance of people around right now.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Yeah. I think that was really great way to, to end that. So yeah, that gives them even more tools to come and stay regulated. if.
Final Thoughts and Resources
Joree Rose, LMFT: What we’re talking about and the ways in which we’re role modeling not only our own relationship, but relationship tools is inspiring to you and your relationship needs some tuneup work or some very deep healing.
Joree Rose, LMFT: We are available to work with couples who recognize that love isn’t enough and we’re stuck in similar, repeating, ongoing dynamics that are causing frustration, disconnection, resentment, and no sex. So if that is something that you’re interested in, you can go to our website and again under work with us and look at our couples coaching package.
Joree Rose, LMFT: It is incredibly rewarding to see couples who believe they can’t [00:44:00] get unstuck, and through the patience and time and attention in working with us. We get them unstuck to the point of connection and healing.
Dr. John Schinnerer: happiness.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And it’s possible.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And the website is love isn’t enough.net.
Joree Rose, LMFT: So thank you guys so much for tuning in and it was really fun, kind of roleplaying.
Dr. John Schinnerer: the French made
Joree Rose, LMFT: costume, the French made costume, and you keep bringing that up. But I think I’ve gotta bring up the Johnny Depp character’s name from Pirates? Jack.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yes, captain Jack Sparrow.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Okay. If I’m in a French maid, you’re wearing Jack Sparrow.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I’m in.
Joree Rose, LMFT: Oh, that was fast. Anyhow, if you enjoyed this episode, it would mean so much to us if you gave a rating, a review, or share it,
Dr. John Schinnerer: To help people lead happier, more thriving lives.
Joree Rose, LMFT: And it’s a big passion and purpose of ours to be the shepherds to happier people. And we’ve done our work to role model where we used to get stuck, and this is why you guys learn a lot about us and apparently what John’s fantasy costume is.
Joree Rose, LMFT: All right, take care and be well.